•contradicts

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by heidi90, Sep 25, 2010.

  1. heidi90

    heidi90 Third Technician

    Messages:
    15
    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2009
    i think red dwarf •contradicts its self some times for instance it says that lister was an orphan and was found under a pool table but in another he stands on a platform with rimmer and tells him about his dad when he was little any one else think this, but aprt from that red dwarf rulez!!!!!!!!!!
     
  2. Mardroid

    Mardroid Console Officer

    Messages:
    2,912
    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2004
    Lister had foster (or adoptive)parents. That's the parents he was referring to. By the way, don't think I'm getting at you, but as this thread is Red Dwarf related it can go in that section of the website. The Garbage Pod is basically for anything else.
     
  3. heidi90

    heidi90 Third Technician

    Messages:
    15
    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2009
    sorry i didnt put it her purposly :-(
     
  4. Andrew

    Andrew Executive Officer

    Messages:
    1,665
    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Thread moved!

    And yeah, the characters' backstories change. Some - like Lister's parents - can been retro-fitted to suit the new choices. (Lister talking about his dad now assumed to be step-dad; Rimmer's mention of that 'unfortunate suicide business' with his father now being assumed to be an unsuccessful attempt.) Some downright clash and can't be fixed. (The change of Lister and Kochanski's history from being 'never dated' to 'she dumped Lister'.)
     
  5. SixthDwarfer

    SixthDwarfer Supply Officer

    Messages:
    582
    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2006
    I keep meaning to go through series I & II and look at the Kochanski/Lister moments. Some are easy to retrofit into being 'couple after breakup', but others...
     
  6. Mardroid

    Mardroid Console Officer

    Messages:
    2,912
    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2004
    Yeah, it's not so much scenes between Kochanski and Lister where the contradiction lies as a conversation between Lister and Rimmer (or was it Holly?)
     
  7. Andrew

    Andrew Executive Officer

    Messages:
    1,665
    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Well his flirting with her in The End is hard;y in-keeping with a man who's been recently dumped. But yeah, if you're talking about literal dialogue it's not like he ever walked up to her and said "Hi, we've never dated, have we?" - so it's things like "Why did I never ask her out? What's the worst she could have said?" to Rimmer.

    Or we can combine the two and look at Lister talking to Rimmer-in-Kochanski's-body: "We've never made love. Go away Rimmer."
     
  8. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

    Messages:
    1,862
    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    Personally I've never really understood the explanation commonly given for why Lister's relationship with Kochanski was altered by the writers, in the sense that I didn't see the need for it. If I recall correctly it was stated that GnN thought it would be unrealistic, or slightly pathetic, for Lister to be pining for a girl he never dated and much more realistic for him to long for someone who dumped him.

    If I look back over my early Lister-age years I probably had plenty of unrequited love ala season one Lister but very rarely would I dwell on broken relationships for any length of time.

    It's all down to personality and the manner in which it was done of course but I'm not sure I agree that Lister's pining for someone who essentially broke his heart made sense. While it does indeed hurt to be dumped, people usually eventually get over it and can see the relationship for what it was.

    Unrequited romantic longing on the other hand might be considered immature but it works for Lister because he can essentially idealise Kochanski as the perfect woman, never having to accept the flaws (and god knows if you believe series 7's Kochanski to be more or less the same as his own then she certainly has them) that a real relationship can reveal.

    With no women left alive I thought it made perfect sense for Lister, who is after all demonstrably young and immature in those early series to create this idealised image of what might have been (The woman in the white dress on a horse). I wasn't really sure why it would be considered unrealistic or pathetic. If anything its just the romance of the terminally lonely and that fits in well with the shows early series themes.
     
  9. Andrew

    Andrew Executive Officer

    Messages:
    1,665
    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    I think you've taken 'what you feel' for what's typical. I'm not at all sure that conclusion is accurate. Indeed, I don't know many people who spend too much time dwelling on the one they barely spoke to and never asked out - but I know plenty who have been permanently damaged by a break-up and forever hold on to a measure of regret...and idealisation.

    Though, again, that's not objective. That's just personal experience.

    Lister was still meant to be 25 in that first series, that's not especially young or immature. (Though Rob and Doug's early grasp of good drama wasn't always spot-on - that white horse stuff is pretty awful and unlikely. Even a 15 year old would balk at expressing their love that way.) And, again, I think we can idealise long-lost exes just as easily as someone we never spoke to. And that idealisation is easier to make seem credible because you're working from definite facts as a starting point.

    I mean, I see your point - and I'm not saying the change was right or wrong - but I don't think the argument about what one does or doesn't get over holds water.
     
  10. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

    Messages:
    1,862
    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    /\/\THIS/\/\

    You expressed it better than I did. Lister is, for me, at his most lovable as the hopelessly idealistic romantic that we see in the early series (which is why I suspect my skin always crawls whenever he's sometimes written as a bit of a slimy/macho perv in the later series).
    Part of why I loved the ending of Back to Earth ("Yeah...I will") was that it seemed to redeem this forgotten part of Lister and restore him from what he had become in latter series to the wistful optimism he carried in his early appearances.

    Has it been, though? Back to Earth contained references to both on Lister's bunkroom with posters of Fiji AND a Lady on a white horse!

    I'd be disappointed personally if Andrew's view that this stuff was "pretty awful" was shared by Doug. Lister's plan is still very much alive in my head and I hope in Lister's too. :P
     
  11. Andrew

    Andrew Executive Officer

    Messages:
    1,665
    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    By the way, I didn't say the change was necessary. No need to make this about one side or the other. I just take issue with the idea that people get over breakups easily, but find it harder to get over crushes.

    I don't think that was jettisoned. They used Kochanski less in the show, which isn't the same thing. He still dreamed of being reunited with her, marrying, having kids and being together forever. The hopeless romantic in him is totally still in place. Otherwise we'd not have gone for that BTE ending.

    Except his plan is mentioned in most detail right out of stasis - before he'd got to grips with being the last human. So it's a plan he's been holding onto day to day around the ship. Sure, as a do-lally thing that he comes up with after months alone in space, that follows. But that's not how it's introduced.

    I didn't say that all 'this stuff' was pretty awful. Just the white dress/horses thing. Didn't cite any other example than that.

    If someone I knew came to me and said his plan was to take a girl he never really spoke to for long away to an island, and he'd picked out what she was going to wear in the 'unicorn and rainbows' poster daydream he described, my first thought wouldn't be 'what a lovely romantic guy'. It'd be 'mentally deficient'.

    The Fiji dream, though, in and of itself, is alive and well. As was said, we even added some detail to Lister's bunk in BTE that reflected it. Detail I was involved with. I have nothing whatsoever against the hopeless romantic as a concept, nor as a key part of Lister's ongoing personality. Let's at least be clear on that if we're going to lament what my view is and who might share it.
     
  12. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

    Messages:
    1,862
    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    I don't think that's what we are saying, at least I myself wasn't trying to. What I meant was that with crushes or unrequited love, ala Lister of season one, we don't really need to get over them. They are fantasies that normally go away when we meet someone and have a real relationship with them. As this was guaranteed never to happen with Lister it seems unecessary for him to give up his idealised fantasy. He has nobody to move on with and therefore I never found it immature of him or difficult to accept, although I grant you that wanting her to wear a particular dress might not go down to well with KK, I never got the feeling he intended to dress her up, it was just how he visualised her.
    As for breakups, especially messy ones involving other people, yep I don't disagree that they can be hard to get over but rarely, at least in my experience, do people hold such perfect idealised conceptions of the girl who dumped them, especially if as in the Lister case, she essentially left them for another man or to get back together with an ex. There's usually a little bit of bitterness or resenment towards the dumper that doesn't infect the purity of longing for one who never got the chance to hurt us.

    Well, nobody else spells Thursday with an 'F' ;-)

    Pleased to hear it.
     

Share This Page