A polite argument about why BTE 1 was pants

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by Beth1983, Apr 11, 2009.

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  1. Beth1983

    Beth1983 Second Technician

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    No swear words no condemnation of those who like it.

    I would just like to address some points that the Pro BTE people have been expressing.

    Pro Arguments:

    1. The jokes were more "subtle"
    2. It was funny.
    3. It was like classic dwarf.
    4. It was better without a live audience.
    5. It's only the first part of a 3 parter, don't judge until you see all three.

    I'm going to address all these points.

    1. No the jokes weren't more subtle. They simply weren't as funny. If you grinned but didn't laugh it didn't mean the joke was more subtle but instead that the joke wasn't that funny. Sorry but it's the truth. I could see where the jokes were supposed to be funny but they weren't. Which leads me into...

    2. It wasn't funny, the jokes felt forced, the acting felt flat, it was dull and uninspired. I was never once drawn into the show. Which means....

    3. It didn't feel like classic dwarf, classic dwarf had high energy to it which this clearly lacked probably because...

    4. It needed the energy of a live audience, not for "cues for the home audience to laugh" but because it energizes the actors and they amp up their performances. They act better in front of a live audience, the seasons where they showed the recording to an audience to get the laughter? Still lacked the energy of the live audience seasons. I will always prefer a live audience for Red Dwarf, other shows it doesn't work well for but it works with the actors in Red Dwarf.

    Finally...

    5. For all those saying "Well it wasn't great but you shouldn't judge it until you see the other two parts" um...that's not good planning for a t.v. show. Even a special. If the first episode (or for that matter the first 23 minutes) of a show don't grab the audience (and for a comedy) make them laugh then they've failed. It doesn't matter if the rest is brilliant the beginning is when you get the audience, the rest of the episode is not only for telling your story but for holding them. In my opinion BTE part 1 failed to grab or interest me to see the rest.

    *sighs* I will see the other two parts because Simon would be disappointed otherwise, but if I was on my own? No I wouldn't. I would also be against him paying money for it as well as I think it's rubbish.

    Let me put it this way, I was hoping this was good and was disappointed and not interested in it. When Doctor Who came back I was aggressively not interested but agreed to watch the first episode with Simon (taking my knitting so I wouldn't be bored) within the first 5 minutes I was glued to the screen and at the end of the episode couldn't wait to see more.

    That's what I mean by needing to grab an audience.
     
  2. Daniel

    Daniel Console Officer

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    As someone who found it funny, I guess it all comes to the fact that the new specials appeal more to those with a certain sense of humour perhaps. In much the same way that not everyone finds every comedy funny, it all relates to this aspect. It just doesn't appeal to your in this case.

    I do agree about the classic Dwarf comments though. Classic dwarf was faster and more energetic, especially with the cat, and this doesn't feel that much like a step back toward that type of Dwarf. It is just a new type, in much the same way as each series causes differences to the previous series (most noticably with 6 and the running gags, 7 with the story-driven and 8 with the... not sure how to describe it to be honest)
     
  3. TheAmazingDannyKing

    TheAmazingDannyKing Catering Officer

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    Well, a polite response is;

    1) Just because you didn't laugh, it does not mean that nobody else did. I was in a room with 6 mates last night and we where all laughing out loud at most of the jokes. Perhaps we're all low-brow or something. More subtle is the wrong word, but certainly without a laugh track and perhaps without a live audience it feels different. This does not make it bad, however.

    2) Again, the acting was dull and uninspired in your view. I for one didn't see it that way at all. I'm not sure why you use those words, but they just weren't dull nor uninspired. The energy felt different because of a lack of laughter track, which brings me onto....

    3) The energy feels different because of a laugh of laughter track, so the pace is slower. This is because it is split over three parts. This is arguably a bad thing, yes, but that does not make the content any worse. Of course, series I and II also had this slower pace and less energy. Remember them? Plus having a new energy isn't a bad thing. I liked it. Again, it's not "pants" it's "pants in your opinion."

    4) Ditto. It's probably not good its split over three parts but you have to take it as it comes, and as it's coming, you can't judge it on the first third. I know I am not, and it's silly that you are.

    Also, the way you're strongly voicing *your* opinion means you feel strongly about it, so clearly your dismissive attitude of "I dont care about this but my husband makes me watch it" argument is a bit nonsensicle. For a start, he clearly must have liked it, so that's a point in case. You know you'd watch it anyway, otherwise you wouldn't be here feeling so strongly about it.

    You have to realise just because you dont like something, does not mean we all have to hate it.
     
  4. Beth1983

    Beth1983 Second Technician

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    The "jokes" for what they were were in the older style, a bit over the top and camp but poorly delivered and lethargic feeling.

    In fact a lot of what should have been jokes felt more angry...too angry for it to be funny.

    This wasn't a comedy about a group of people stuck in space it was a show about a group of people stuck in one place who hated each other.
     
  5. dazsin

    dazsin First Technician

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    I personally find comedy lots more funny when it is more subtle and you are still laughing the next day about the joke/line - like the 'smug whistle' one - I was grinning about that earlier.

    The kind of 'in your face' humour found in shows like Friends and such shows simply is too dumbed down for me - ie Pheobe shouting 'oh my gaaawwd' at the top of her voice to canned laughter - will not even raise a grin to me.

    I laughed all the way through BTE 1 - which means it was funny to me, end of story. Can't wait till part 2.

    Red Dwarf is well and truly back.
     
  6. Daniel

    Daniel Console Officer

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    Hmm. I don't think the angry feel ran throughout. Certainly in the Lister/Rimmer relationship it was there, but that may be an attempt to recreate the older feel as Lister and Rimmer used to hate each other passionately (both on- and off-set). But outside of those two I don't feel there was so much angry jokes. Admittedly a fair few of the jokes were Lister/Rimmer, but again that's probably an attempt for an older feel again.
     
  7. jacksmith

    jacksmith Catering Officer

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    so they all loved each other before?
     
  8. MacabreMagpie

    MacabreMagpie Catering Officer

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    Never seen The Office? Not saying you particularly have to like to the show to get this point, but its massively successfully and considered very funny but you'll find very few people who laugh out loud whilst watching. So that comment is clearly balls.

    I think you're right, the actors give a different performance with an audience (I actually think that if most of the haters saw the same script with an audience-present performance they'd like it) but the fact is that wasnt an option this time around, and it's just something you have to live with. You can't really critise them for not having an audience present.

    I would agree that it wasn't really structured well enough to be broken off into three episodes judgin by this, but the reason people say it should be judged as a whole is that this part in relation to the rest could completely change in context. I for one really loved the episode and can see how it's a build up and it was a mistake to show it as an episode on its own. Bad structural writing by Doug or bad planning by Dave, who knows, but if a story is split into three parts I think its reasonable to judge it by its whole. If someone split any movie into three parts, it's quite blatant that each part wouldn't be as good as the whole. You might reply that it's irrelevant because it WAS screened as an episode, but I'm replying to your statement that it doesn't matter if you've seen the rest or not because it clearly, clearly does.
     
  9. dynamostia

    dynamostia Third Technician

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    I hope it picks up. If the next installment is like this one, I wont watch the rest.

    I know they have gone for high value looks, but I honestly think it takes something away from what made red dwarf what it was. Whatever happened to the battleship grey?
     
  10. Beth1983

    Beth1983 Second Technician

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    Actually husband didn't like, just would like to see the other parts. That's an assumption on your part.

    And actually no I wouldn't watch it anyway, I'm here because it's saturday, I'm heavily pregnant, bored, and in pain. There is very little else to do.

    Also I don't mind 3 part specials, but the first part HAS to grab the audiences attention that's my complaint. I felt the first episode didn't inspire me to see the other two. That's what a first parter is supposed to do, grab your attention and make you want more.

    Also I don't expect people to hate it, BUT I don't think people who do dislike it should be dismissed as "Not getting it" which is how I feel the arguments for it have been used. Also, I thought it would be good to have an argument against the show that didn't involve swear words or saying that people who liked it are blind idiots cause you're not.

    You have an opinion, and I have mine. But I'm not stupid any more than you are...that's the point I was trying to get across. I have a right to dislike it and you have a right to like it.
     
  11. connell

    connell First Technician

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    Shouldn't part 1 have been called "Red Dwarf: We're going back to Earth next time but have 23 minutes of rubbish we pieced together just to call it 3 parts"

    I slightly enjoyed it, but the atmosphere sucked.
     
  12. Beth1983

    Beth1983 Second Technician

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    No...but it wasn't so....aggressive? I don't like comedy where characters are spitting bile at each other. Yes there were mean jokes before but...I don't know it felt...different.

    The atmosphere just didn't feel right, more negative. But again that's my opinion.
     
  13. Fairfax

    Fairfax Catering Officer

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    I agree a lot with what the first poster said.

    I also think that the whole thing felt unfinished.

    Firstly the script, some of the jokes and lines had me cringing and the plot lurched all over the place. Doug seemed top want to rush all over the place at high speed and so the scenes didn`t knit together. One minute the leviathan is there, the next Katerina with no questions asked, the next she says she can build a machine to get them back to Earth, the next minute it is completed. Also the basic character points weren`t there for me. It felt like Doug hadn`t actually thought, what would the character do now? What would there emotions be? etc. Really basic stuff.

    Then there is the acting. Not all bad but certainly should have been some retakes as many times things were really flat.

    The direction. Doug being a first-time director probably showed. Partly in not making sure that the performances were right but also in not keeping things interesting imo.

    Even things like editing and music could have been improved upon. I just don`t think Doug is up to doing all of it on his own.
     
  14. MacabreMagpie

    MacabreMagpie Catering Officer

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    You are right in saying there seemed to be a bit more aggression.... Cat surprised me when he threatened Lister!
     
  15. Daniel

    Daniel Console Officer

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    This is a very fair point, and one that has really been unfair on those who don't like Back-to-Earth. To use a previous example, I can't stand "The Office", and during the times in my first year of uni when I was forced to sit through bits of it I never once raised even the faintest of smiles. Why? Because I just don't it funny, not because I don't "get it" or anything of that nature. Not everyone has the exact same tastes, which is one of the things that can provide enjoyable discussions (such as over preferred episodes/series).

    We seem to be in the midst of an influx of the fanboys, who believe they know best and anything they think should be the accepted norm. A horrible and tedious thought at the best of times, it is making things very unfair for those who don't like it.

    And is it just me, or has the "polite" air that started this dissipated somewhat and resulted in some rather "hard" comments?
     
  16. jacksmith

    jacksmith Catering Officer

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    All reviewers have said (as far as i can tell) that episode One is boring in comparison so id tell everyone to wait abit
     
  17. cyberkilla

    cyberkilla Second Technician

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    I think people are over-analysing it.

    Did you do this with every one of the old episodes? I have liked every episode I've seen, from 1988-1999.
    I wasn't born until 1989, so I have the vantage point of a person who sees every season with the a similar degree of nostalgia.

    It slowly changed from being all about Lister and Rimmer, to including the other characters more. The confined space they lived in became smaller, then larger again as the seasons came to an end in 1999.
    Personally, I don't think the last couple of seasons were that bad at all.

    This BTE episode was not a million miles away from the old Red Dwarf. It will never be quite the same, and the atmosphere was somewhat marred by the lack of a live audience, but the jokes are the same and so was the acting.
     
  18. Beth1983

    Beth1983 Second Technician

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    Ummm no. The Office has a different type of humor completely...It's not a type of show I like though as it relies on people being humiliated and that always makes me wince but even when I'm wincing I can see why people like it. This one had old dwarf style jokes that just weren't funny. There weren't any subtle jokes. If you can see the joke but not laugh that's not subtle, that's just bad acting.

    Um yes I can. Just because they may not have had a choice doesn't mean I can say it wasn't as good because of it.

    They knew it was going to be 3 episodes for a long long time. The fact that he chose to right something that didn't fit into that format was his fault, also! I would argue that in the first 23 minutes there has to be something to grab the audience even if this was shown as one long made for t.v. movie rather then 3 specials I would still have been bored and turned off by the first 23 minutes.
     
  19. jmevans

    jmevans Skutter

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    The tone isn't high energy anymore in my view, they've been alone in space for another 9 years and lost crew members, a very depressing but still funny tone with the essence of change is what I felt and loved it!
     
  20. MacabreMagpie

    MacabreMagpie Catering Officer

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    That's fine though, you don't HAVE to like the office to understand my point, which was that something doesn't have to be laugh-out-loud funny for people TO find it funny.

    It really makes no difference to me if people didn't like the show, but there are some who've said the people saying they like it must be kidding themselves. I was making an argument that people find different types of humour funny, and a lot of peoples comedic tastes will have changed since the last RD. I was only 16 the last time I saw it, so of course my tastes have changed.
     
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