A Question Regarding Models for X

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by BadWolf117, Aug 24, 2013.

  1. BadWolf117

    BadWolf117 Second Technician

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    In the documentary on the Series 10 Disc Doug mentioned that he was looking for model shots from Series 1 and 2

    Does this mean that he was originally going to use footage of the red dwarf model from the early years?

    i just thought that if that was the case than why not just use the footage of the models from the dvd releases..chromakey the ship
    out of the black and place it in the star backgrounds as the model footage on the dvd release look pretty good (atleast on my 45 inch HD TV)
     
  2. Smegerama

    Smegerama Supply Officer

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    Well...considering it would be in standard definition, made even lower resolution since they'd have to expand the image to be able to crop it to 16:9, the picture quality would be rubbish to the point of being distracting. ESPECIALLY when combined with newly made elements that actually are in high definition.

    Also chroma key doesn't work like that. Given the lighting, you'd have to go through and manually set up travelling mattes because keying out the black would also take out every shadow on the ship. And the end result of that would ALSO look rubbish.

    Basically, they didn't use them because there was no way it wouldn't look absolutely horrible unless they could at LEAST work from the original negatives.

    Which the BBC lost.

    EDIT: Here's a visual demonstration what a stretched, black-keyed-out model shot would look like.

    It wouldn't necessarily look this awful, but it wouldn't look good by a long shot.
     
  3. BadWolf117

    BadWolf117 Second Technician

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    Yeah you have a good point
     
  4. BadWolf117

    BadWolf117 Second Technician

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    Hang on a minute?

    What about Model footage from other series...like Series 3,4 or 5? surely the film/footage of Demons and Angels...chromakey one of the red dwarf ships out and bang there is a model shot :-D
     
  5. CharlieTeague

    CharlieTeague First Technician

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    I think the same set of problems mentioned by Smegerama would still apply for the most part. The negatives are probably lost for the later model shots too, so the issue of losing resolution would mean that using the older model shots is not an option. I sort of thought it was weird that they wanted to reuse the old model shots for Back to Earth and Series X because it wasn't exactly consistent with the use of CGI for the last two series, although since when has Red Dwarf been consistent!:lol:
     
  6. pad_ehh

    pad_ehh Catering Officer

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    The model shots used for series 5 and 6 were superb and if any model shots used in X (or even in XI) looked anywhere near as good they'd be on to a winner. The model shots of Starbug and Blue Midget we got in X underwhelmed me to be honest, but the Red Dwarf ones were gorgeous.
     
  7. Goit_84

    Goit_84 First Technician

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    This will sound brutal - but go watch series 1-5 again and look at the model shots of the Red Dwarf ship. Seeing it on a modern HD-capable screen isn't exactly kind to those shots. They look fine in their original context but those shots would look incredibly jarring with any other footage. The resolution of the detail in the actual model itself just isn't quite good enough got the size of image and aspect ratio that Red Dwarf now gets shot with. Having original negatives wouldn't solve the issue. Burn the heretic! I know, I hate to admit it too - but go watch them again, that model would look awful and unfit for the kind of images people expect. I don't know if it's nostalgia or what but it would look hideous in HD.

    Personally, I don't know why they can't just try and duplicate the 1-5 model's design and just do it at a more detailed level, enabling for a reshoot of classic fly-bys. I know that'd be a lot of work but it would pay dividends with some classic shots. The kind of detail required for a good model shot in decent lighting would be a project worth doing. I'll settle for the ship in X though.

    Just get the feeling with better time management and less production hiccups it would allow the time a really good model build really needs.
     
  8. BadWolf117

    BadWolf117 Second Technician

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    I have watched Series 1-5 Model shots on a HD 40 inch tv and they look alright occasionally a tiny bit pixelated but they still looks better than the whole cardboard cutout model shots from Series X i mean take a look at Fathers and Suns the shot where Lister on the jetpack the first shot looks dreadful like a cardboard cutout only the 2nd shot where he is in front of the ship looks good

    same with Trojan the shot where Starbug is leaving Red Dwarf and returning is so dreadful..why didnt they just film the Red Dwarf model moving and then composite the starbug leaving the ship..it would have atleast have some more credibility

    i personally would have pefered the cgi ship from back to earth
     
  9. Goit_84

    Goit_84 First Technician

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    There's a few that look really good in 1-5: they're all mainly the shots of Starbug doing something like landing on a planet or leaving Red Dwarf. Those still look really good.

    The shots of the Red Dwarf ship model are what I'm thinking of here - the shots used a lot in 1-2 where the camera flies under its belly and stuff. It looks too vac-formed. The close-up tracking shots wouldn't have held up.

    But yeah you're right about the poor compositing. It did look a bit cartoony seeing Lister flying around the ship at what must have been the same speed as Starbug or something. That strange curved ram-scoop interior looked like a bizarre HD 1990's screensaver (way too clean, uniform and totally non-industrial for something that should have looked filthy and mechanical/laden with various tools and docking facilities - no?) But then again, like everything on X you can tell what they were aiming for and yet somehow something got in the way and compromised the shot.
     
  10. BadWolf117

    BadWolf117 Second Technician

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    There's a few that look really good in 1-5: they're all mainly the shots of Starbug doing something like landing on a planet or leaving Red Dwarf. Those still look really good.

    The shots of the Red Dwarf ship model are what I'm thinking of here - the shots used a lot in 1-2 where the camera flies under its belly and stuff. It looks too vac-formed. The close-up tracking shots wouldn't have held up.

    But yeah you're right about the poor compositing. It did look a bit cartoony seeing Lister flying around the ship at what must have been the same speed as Starbug or something. That strange curved ram-scoop interior looked like a bizarre HD 1990's screensaver (way too clean, uniform and totally non-industrial for something that should have looked filthy and mechanical/laden with various tools and docking facilities - no?) But then again, like everything on X you can tell what they were aiming for and yet somehow something got in the way and compromised the shot.[/quote]

    to be fair to GNP productions they couldnt afford the motion control cameras but what gets me is yes the composite is really bad-
    The Shot of Starbug returning to Red Dwarf it looks really terible mainly as it shows Starbug bigger than Red Dwarf itself who is just a static image..the shot from the dvd openings from Series 3-5 looked lightyears ahead

    dont get me wrong there are still plenty of awesome shots- the scene where Red Dwarf is towing the trojan ship (though i swear it would have been better if the thrusters at the back were the lightbulb look of Series 1-7 & BTE (sorry its one of the thing ill never forgive Doug for doing), the sequence with Blue Midget in the astroid field is perfect though and the lens flair off the red dwarf ship was rather impressive
     
  11. Mardroid

    Mardroid Console Officer

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    The sequences involving the simulant ships looked excellent too. To be fair they really put some effort into those shots.

    I agree that some of the Starbug shots in X looked a bit dodgy, and there was something strange about the way Blue Midget flew away from the explosion at the end of The Beginning* that didn't look quite right. The issue here was with the animation though, the Blue Midget model itself looked good.


    *End of the beginning? Heh.
     
  12. BadWolf117

    BadWolf117 Second Technician

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    The Starbug shots werent dodgy it was the red dwarf ship that looked dodgy- i just laugh whenever i see stars flying past the red dwarf ship which looks like a 2d static cardboard cutout...
     
  13. Deviblue

    Deviblue Second Technician

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    The original footage would have been on film. Had they located it and been able to use a high def scan on the film and some digital restoration and colour balancing I think it may have been surprisingly good.

    That said I really like the revamp on the 'pencil' ship to the classic stumpy version. Really benefits the 'hd makeover' and the single lightsource style lighting
     
  14. BadWolf117

    BadWolf117 Second Technician

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    See this is why i hate the BBC...they junk nearly everything....

    the "pencil" shape in X is alright but still im not warming to it mainly as i hate the engine in the back...extend it out like
    in Back To Earth with the long pipe thing and i would be okay with it
     

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