A theory that explains some problems with Tikka

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by bedfordfalls, Aug 1, 2009.

  1. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    I've been thinking about the annoying continuity error in Tikka to Ride (which I otherwise rate as a great episode) and also about the rather slapdash explanation for the bigger Starbug mentioned in another thread. How about this as a theory that attempts to better explain both.

    The main problems we have in this episode (except for the time drive now suddenly working completely differently) are:

    1. The "crew escape death at the hands of their future selves due to their deaths making it impossible for them to come back in time adn kill themselves" paradox which completely contradicts the "future JFK is able to come back in time and assasinate himself without these same consequences occuring and in fact simply leading to death of both JFK's.

    and

    2. Why is Starbug suddenly so much bigger (not accounting for Krytens rather poor "dimensional anomolies speech").

    Obviously what I'm going to propose next couldn't have been revealed at the time without giving out massive spoilers but here goes.
    What if what actually happened was this.

    The Future Red Dwarf destroys the current Red Dwarf as seen in "out of time". This instantly wipes out the future Red Dwarf team in much the same manner as future JFK. But also leaves the present crew and starbug "splattered across the stratosphere".

    Now, lets fast forward to Nanarchy which reveals to us that at the point where Starbug "lost all trace" of Red Dwarf's vapour trail (Out of Time) the Nanobots had entered Starbug and hidden in Lister's sock bin having turned Red Dwarf into a planet.
    When Starbug was destroyed then, is it not feasable to suppose that the Nanobots, and not some dodgy "dimensional anomoly", set to work recreating the Bug and the crew; much as they would later do with the Red Dwarf they had disguised as a planet?

    This would remove the continuity problem over the differing fates of the crew and JFK and explain why, much like their work on Red Dwarf and Lister's body (Nanarchy) the "new" Starbug was so superior and larger than the old one.

    What think the forum? :?
     
  2. jacksolomonsmith

    jacksolomonsmith First Technician

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    nice idea, but as far as I'm concerned, series 7 and 8 were dreams.
    It's not that i hate them, it's just that it's...Easier, to forgive the random things, like how i imagine most series take place in diferent universes this is why, the change in asthetics, date, and number of crew on Red Dwarf.
     
  3. Mardroid

    Mardroid Console Officer

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    Hmmm. That's not a bad idea actually. They did state that they returned to events before the crisis occurred too though. Hence the Time-drive being back on it's ship of origin.

    Considering the contradiction between what happened to the Dwarfers when killed by their future selves and what happened to Kennedy... I wonder if there actually is a contradiction. I.e. in the Dwarfer's case, we're seeing things from the point of view of those that were killed and went back (albeit in a new timeline spawned by the paradox.) Presumably their future selves vanished too right? Isn't it possible the same thing happened to Kennedy? He is shot by his future self... a new timeline is spawned to deal with the paradox... and he returns to before he was killed... and subsequently is killed again. Either by himself or the gunman, depending on what aspects of the two realities were combined (does it always combine the same way.) Meanwhile the Dwarfers continue on in the new timeline... From their point of view, Starbug is now back regardless of the timey-wimey stuff going on in the past.
     
  4. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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  5. archie918

    archie918 Second Technician

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    About the time machine, they could have have attached the matter paddle or the teleporter (MP from meltdown teleporter from Rimmerworld). That would explain the functionality difference.
     
  6. Mardroid

    Mardroid Console Officer

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    Good thought. At least with the matter paddle (I tend to associate the Teleporter with short range teleports.) Trouble is, it begs the question why didn't they use the matter paddle to get back to Earth in their current time in the first place.
     
  7. dvd3500

    dvd3500 Catering Officer

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    Maybe because it's just a lump of plastic?
    :-D
     
  8. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    The problem with tikka to ride is that nothing about it makes sense. It contains more continuity errors and paradoxes than all other episodes combined. A shame really as with a bit more thought and care most of them could have been explained away.
    As it is its the perfect example of not letting exposition get in the way of jokes and it remains a brilliant episode...provided you don't think about it.
     
  9. mophead241

    mophead241 Catering Officer

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    I know at the start of Tikka to Ride Lister says they survived because of the Grandfather paradox (they killed themselves therefore they couldn't kill themselves) but at the end of Out of Time Rimmer destroys the time drive, stopping them from being able to go back and kill themselves. They should have used this instead of the paradox (I know this meant they couldn't have used it in Tikka to Ride but...)
     
  10. Number_58

    Number_58 Second Technician

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    I just assumed the Dwarfers' future selves had a faster-than-light drive which merged with the time drive as part of the universe's fix.

    *camera explodes*
     
  11. Seb

    Seb Captain Staff Member

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    Or the universe-merging somehow mashed it together with the teleporter from Rimmerworld, or...
     
  12. Mardroid

    Mardroid Console Officer

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    Or the time drive could always travel through space as well as time. Kryten just hadn't figured that out yet in Series 6. (That seemed to actually be Ed Bye's explanation in one of the documentaries on the Series 7 DVD, although he didn't complete it.)

    All work, really. I do wish an explanation had been given in Tikka To Ride though, if only a small comment, but I still thought the episode was a cracker overall. Curiously (well curious to me anyway) I'm reading a Stephen King novel at the moment which deals with a similar subject matter. (JFK, not the time drive stuff.) I wonder if the results will turn out similarly...*

    *I'm not accusing Stephen King of plagiarism by the way. It's proving to be an interesting read so far,
     
  13. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    Rimmer finally showing some heroism with this and his "better dead than Smeg" speech would have been the perfect precurssor to him deciding to take on the matle of Ace. I agree...why this wasn't incorporated into that storyline is beyond me.

    I can only assume that Doug thought it was funnier to have Rimmer's act of heroism count for nothing although I think that this was a misguided choice given the general fan reaction to it.

    I've always kind of enjoyed how the Rimmer of Tikka to Ride appears to be quiet, thoughtful and almost something of a leader of the group. It's as though his characer did gain something from the experience...although I'm sure it's just coincidence combined with the devolution of Lister's character who appears to suffer from Homer Simpson syndrome in the latter series.
     
  14. MichaelJRimmer

    MichaelJRimmer Second Technician

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    Well a really good explanation on how they survived is that they actually never met their future selves. It was an unreality dream. During the battle with "Future" Starbug there was an unreality jolt right before meaning that they were taken from one into another! But I like the series 7 and 8 are a dream theory. Though I like Stoke me a Clipper and blue was funny. But series VIII was horrible. I hated everything including the crew. Smoke me kipper!
     
  15. Goit_84

    Goit_84 First Technician

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    I thought Tikka To Ride made little to no sense.

    It pretty much contradicts everything in Out Of Time to the detriment of character and plot. While its a fun time travel premise it also highlights the lack of direction. The Time Drive should have been completely forgotten about.

    I think Red Dwarf VII was the series where it changed from Earth being home and hating existence in space to Red Dwarf being home and going to Earth not being such a big deal. That was a key change for the show and one that has led to confusion and frustration ever since. Even in X going to Earth isn't seen as a big deal (Lemons) but I feel if Series 1-5 Lister teleported to Earth he would have kissed the ground. It's things like that that make me think they've just forgotten what these characters are and are just rememberring the caricatures like loving curry and being a slob.

    At least with series 1-6 there was an over-arching goal of some sort, but 7-onwards seemed to be all about obsessing over Red Dwarf, being on Red Dwarf. It's like the characters have become institutionalised. That could be something that they could address in series 11 - what do the characters really want? I guess they just want happiness and peace so they should work that in to whatever plot device they come up with, rather than allow the narrative to flounder. It's easier to get on board with the jokes when the plot isn't leaving you scratching your head.
     
  16. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    The thing is, why wouldn't they have become institutionalised?

    In comparison to their lifespan, the amount of time that Lister and Rimmer spent on Earth as adults is really small (in fact were not even sure for certain whether Rimmer has EVER been to Earth. It's likely he was raised on Io and then went straight into service with the JMC.

    Cat and Kryten have never been to Earth (outside of their time travelling adventures) which makes for an amusing joke about Earth for the former in series X.)

    Even Lister, who's plan it was to get to Earth, has now spent more of his life living on Red Dwarf than anywhere else...and he's relatively comfortable there with no need to work and an infinite supply of food and beer.

    Interestingly, Lister never actually states that "Earth" is his destination. Instead its "plot a course for Fiji". Now I know that Fiji is on Earth but still it shows the abstract nature of his dream. Anywhere could be "Fiji" for Lister, just as long as he has his quiet simple life with Kochanski and his family. That's probably a big reason why (before Ouroboros) he always returns to Red Dwarf, because without her he knows he wouldn't be any less restless back at home. It's why he almost stayed in the hallucination of BTE.

    It's not about Earth for Lister, its about his plan.
     
  17. dodgebizkit

    dodgebizkit Deck Sergeant

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    I think that the crew were returned to before the fight with enough anomalies in place from both their and they future selves existence to avoid it happening again (the time drive is portable, it sends them through space and time, they have more space for comfort etc) whereas the J FK thing resets everything to how it was before the dwarfers affected it, with enough anomalies o avoid it (possible gunman behind the grassy knoll).


    The thing that doesn't make sense is the mater paddle sending them slightly to the future or past (and on top of that, the past or future s elves not remembering being dropped in on.
     
  18. Goit_84

    Goit_84 First Technician

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    yeah to be fair Lister has it pretty good. He can do what he likes - it's the chumps on Earth still having to go to work we should feel sorry for.
     

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