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Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by Baxters_Hooch, Jun 18, 2009.
All I know is, I've never seen anyone try to claim the puns are better in Series 7 or 8 than in 6.
One of many terrible moves in S7!
A loathsome series
As another poster has hinted, I think you're getting confused between the meaning of the word 'pun' and 'joke' if you'll forgive me for saying so. The 'red light bulb' joke isn't a pun for example.
I would agree that series 1-6 are much funnier than what came afterwards. But they are also much funnier than Rob Grant's solo work. That's because Grant Naylor as a partnership were much funnier than EITHER Doug Naylor or Rob Grant solo.
It's Saturday and I'm tired.
I believe it definitely is the most popular series outside of Dwarf fandom. It's the most accessible series of the lot, and tends to be one people who aren't very into Red Dwarf remember with the smile on their faces. I even managed to get my non-sci-fi girlfriend at the time to watch and laugh very hard at Legion.
I'm a bit late to the party, but this one caught my eye. I quite liked season 7. I liked the deeper storylines and the shift to sci-fi drama/comedy. "Tikka to Ride" was fun, "Stoke Me a Clipper" is on of the best pieces of television I've ever seen, "Ouroboros" gave us some cool Lister backstory, "Duct Soup" has some of the funniest Kochanski moments ever, and "Blue" is amazingly memorable.
I think, though, that what I remember from season 7 (and season 8, come to think) was wasted potential. There was a lot of potential in both series to push to some exciting and new material... but there were things holding it back. I thought, for instance, Kochanski never got fully actualized as a character because they were trying to keep her as Lister's ideal, and an idealized character just can't be a real character. That's why I loved her in "Duct Soup": she was delightfully neurotic, and we needed some neuroses after Rimmer's departure. There was also potential in the Lister/Kochanski relationship, as well as an opportunity to give Kochanski a story arc of her own, but none of that came about. Lister and Kochanski's relationship changed according to what joke they wanted to do, and Kochanski, after "Duct Soup," stopped actually wanting anything.
Okay, now I'm complaining about season 7 as much as everyone else, but I didn't hate it. I liked what it had promised, and I wish it had followed through better.
That's interesting. Personally I would say the opposite. I think that Kochanski was a very unsympathetic character in Series VII.
I do agree though that the Lister/Kochanski relationship was never explored properly. In Series VII it is apparent that they are not compatible at all in terms of their characters and the relationship writing is very superficial.
I didn't quite explain what I meant by "idealized." I'm not saying that they tried to make her into a likeable character. In fact, people tend to like the most non-idealized characters, Rimmer and Lister being prime examples. What we don't like is when a character is made to be somehow smarter/better than the other characters for no particular reason, with no intended mitigating flaws... or at least not flaws we would believe. Kochanski is best when she's neurotic and standoffish, yet with an underlying warmth, frustration, and sadness. She NOT best when she's shown to be superior to and justifiably disdainful of Lister and the rest of the crew, the "strong, independent woman" who's not going to take Lister's advances, but then immediately hints that she's available because that's apparently sexy.
So, she's "idealized" in that her character traits are solely determined by how she relates to Lister, OR by how she's so much more competent than the rest (which is funny because apparently woman). That comes off as annoying because people don't like to see a caricature who's supposed to be a character. People see Kochanski (and the resulting characterization of Lister and Kryten) as a way of talking down to them. So I guess "idealized" is the wrong word, though I wonder if Doug thought that's what he was doing.
Agreed. I loved Kotchanski for all her flaws. I also think I may empathise with her much more than some (but not all) hardened fans do. I also find her kind of cute and funny when she realises she doesn't quite fit in right away. A perfect example of this, for me, is when they participating in games night and she starts talking about the kind of games she's used to playing, and about something she and her friends found hilarious; "We all just fell about". Cat and Lister's reaction to that always cracks me up.
I may be a tad biased when it comes to my views of Kotchanski though, as she kind of reminds me of an old friend I used to have a major crush on. We came from completely different backgrounds and have many differing tastes, but as "they" say, opposites attract". Well, sometimes they do. Other times they just argue rather as lot.
You're just going to have to do this - I liked S7, despite Kryten's excessive jealousy.
I agree with you that Kochanski is best when she's flawed but sympathetic like the rest of the cast. I really feel Doug and his co-writers made a mistake not putting more emphasis on her "class swot" characterisation as briefly touched upon in "Epideme". That could have been her lovable flaw like Lister's slobbiness, Cat's vanity etc.
For reasons best known to themselves, they instead went down the "Lol, she's a woman" route.
It's especially frustrating because Doug can write her well - my favourite version of Kochanski is actually the one in "Last Human", the solo novel he wrote between Series VI and VII.
(I'd better shush now as I don't know if you've read that yet.)
Thank for clarifying and yes, I agree that she was not a fully rounded character and never become three dimensional.
i like it, but i do not like the character of kochanski. i prefer rimmer anyday, and he is still in it basically in memories. i agree she works well with kryten but apart from that i dont think she quite fits.
of course it doesnt compare to the first few series, but i think it does well
It has some funny bits, but overall it's an attempted revolution that just wasn't needed or wanted.
It represents the point where Red Dwarf prematurely jumped the shark. Completely the wrong direction and a bit of a sellout moment where the show lost it's identity chasing something bigger.
I think Red Dwarf 7 is a bit like the Star Wars prequels - you can stray too far from a concept and damage it beyond repair if you completely forget yourself. Red Dwarf 7 had delusions of grandeur perhaps. You can let success go to your head that you forget that your success was down to doing what you know, not doing what you don't know. Red Dwarf 7 is very much in the 'doing what you don't know' category.
It does serve as an example as what not to do with a TV show. Don't try and make it something it isn't.
It has some funny bits, but overall it's an attempted revolution that just wasn't needed or wanted.
It represents the point where Red Dwarf prematurely jumped the shark. Completely the wrong direction and a bit of a sellout moment where the show lost it's identity chasing something bigger. The changes and retcons are a bit of a betrayal in some regards, as they don't improve anything. At worst they are changes that make the characters less likeable. They turn Lister into a complete oaf.
I think Red Dwarf 7 is a bit like the Star Wars prequels - you can stray too far from a concept and damage it beyond repair if you completely forget yourself, think that you are invincible and abandon everything that worked. Red Dwarf 7 had delusions of grandeur perhaps. You can let success go to your head that you forget that your success was down to doing what you know, not doing what you don't know. Red Dwarf 7 is very much in the 'doing what you don't know' category.
It does serve as an example as what not to do with a TV show. Don't try and make it something it isn't. There's something utterly soulless about series 7. Series 8 is just the reanimated corpse, with the pendulum swung in the other direction to compensate for 7. Using 7 to inform 8 at all was another mistake. 8 bares the scars of 7 and then proceeds to self-harm until death literally turns up. Both 7 and 8 seem desperate, like nobody knows what to do and by that point everything is following a principle of box-ticking.
Yeah 7 has a lot to answer for.
I must be the only other one that like season 7.
(I like all of them. Don't all queue up to wallop me).
Over the years series 7 is something i have grown to love apart from the episode Blue, thats one I usually skip maybe I should give it another go.
I like Series 7 a lot. Not everything about it maybe (whiny Kryten did get annoying after a while although I didn't mind him so much on the rewatches.
I liked the new look to the show (although some of the affects were a bit dodgy). I liked the leaning towards comedy drama. I also thought it had one of the best sequences in Dwarf ever: that Ace Rimmer James Bond parody.
And I liked Chloe's Kochanski and have often thought her unfairly derided. I think the dislike of her is more to do with her replacing Chris Barrie' Rimmer (who is actually around in some form for four episodes by the way) than being a bad character in her own right. Sure, she complains a lot (but not as much as you might think if you watch the show objectively), but considering her situation... well she would, wouldn't she? And I think perhaps she is a victim of so called inverse snobbery on the part of some viewers. I don't say that to attack any one here but I've seen plenty of comments which amount to "she rubs me up the wrong way cos she's too posh!" etc. etc. Rimmer's not exactly a working class goit is he? (Actually he is now, but his upbringing certainly wasn't.)
And one of my favourite episodes of Series 7? Beyond a Joke. An episode that many would put up as one of their worst episodes in Red Dwarf ever. I never quite got that. It's got pretty much everything the favoured episodes have. Which I won't go into right now as this post is getting go bit long, but I'd be happy to expand on it later.
I personally love Beyond a Joke too. Able is great - he's really sweet.
Despite its flaws, Beyond a Joke is one of my all-time favourites also.