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Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by Baxters_Hooch, Jun 18, 2009.
Best description ever. 100% true!
A very fair assessment.
Agreed. It's one of my favourite episodes too. I also agree about the 'inverse snobbery' that seems to have emerged among some of the hardcore fan base. I wouldn't personally change a thing about Kochanski in series 7.
*hides from the Kochanski haters*
Beyond A Joke's brilliant 8)
The inverse snobbery probably does apply to some fans but I think the Kochanski problems run a lot deeper than that.
I think when you bring any new character into an established show they have to fulfil a real purpose (or be extremely funny) if they are going to be accepted. Now bringing Kochanski back was obviously not an organic move. I don`t think anyone at the end of Series VI was thinking, `what this show really needs is for Lister`s girlfriend to appear every week`. Firstly, as it goes against the entire premise of the show (the last human) and secondly, because she obviously wasn`t needed to improve the dynamic between the characters.
Now obviously Kochanski came back in to try to raise money for a movie but the absence of Rimmer (and it`s scary to think that Ed and Doug were expecting Chris Barrie to not be involved at all) meant that she had to be the figure of antagonism. That doesn`t work at all when she is also meant to be the love interest and especially not when she is written and acted as badly as this.
(When you move onto Series VIII this becomes an even bigger mess as her role is now purely as token woman who we can get some very base laughs out of).
Agree with all of this.
She also wasn't Kochanski. She wasn't the likeable, sweet smiley girl who happened to be a navigator and who Lister had a somewhat unrequited crush on that was both a bit sweet and sad. We were never told much about her, so people had their own ideas, much like Lister - who up until 7 - didn't really know her either. She was a bit like Anakin Skywalker or Boba Fett in a strange way - a somewhat mythical character meant to spur the protagonist but always stay out of reach until perhaps the very end. Reveal too much and you ruin it as people have this person in their imagination for so long. It's an impossible task to take a mysterious character and realise them after years of their existence being solely in people's imagination.
She didn't look or act or even have the backstory like the Kochanski we knew so nobody bought it. Kochanski really belongs in the last, final episode where Lister gets the happiest possible ending, along with getting back to Earth (another concept that seems to have become lost). And even then, little should be revealed.
Captain Hollister was revived and suffered in exactly the same way. The strict, by the book but competent Hollister glimpsed in 1 & 2 is almost unrecognisable from the callous, corrupt, fraudulent, entitled buffoon in Series 8.
I could forgive all of the slight character changes but I personally disliked reviving or bring in any proper human characters at all. Bringing in another human threw out the urgency on Lister's part. Series 8 came along and the whole thing shut down while the protagonist did time in prison. Was it just a goofy comedy about losers going in circles or was it aspiring to be a movie where characters grew and became something more? The vision was lost, and even with X I'm unsure what the vision is with Red Dwarf. When I watch Out Of Time and that scene where everyone dies and Rimmer has a genuine Ace Rimmer moment - that's what I think what everyone wanted to see, but it wasn't to be.
The one with Pride and Prejudice Land?!? Blimey, that was terrible!
It's a good episode.
Oh, it's more than good Harry. See, even sim is persuaded now :P
*lights blue touch paper and retires to a safe distance*
He did though. Kochanski as "The girlfriend that never was" was retconned out pretty early on and she became Lister's ex. I thought the first reference was at the start of Psirens until someone else on here pointed out that Lister refers to Kochanski finishing with him in an exchange with Cat in DNA.
As an aside, I personally thought Kochanski was better as an unachievable fantasy figure for Lister.
I also find that rewatching Series VII, I still find the thing that irritates me most is how this changes Kryten. That grates on me far more than Kochanski or Chloe's portrayal of her.
I meant to comment on this...
You are absolutely right in this point. It is only natural that Kochanski would complain about being on board but unfortunately that doesn`t work for the romantic part of the story. Doug said on the DVDs that for the USA pilot it wasn`t right for Lister to be chasing such an uptight and unlikeable Kochanski. Unfortunately he did exactly the same thing in Series VII.
Obviously replacing Rimmer was always going to be near impossible but if they had to get someone else in then a like for like temporary replacement would have worked better. I don`t mean a character who would have looked the same or would have been a technician but somebody who could have been a figure of animosity for the other three characters without affecting the chemistry between Lister, Kryten and the Cat.
Basically though I think a lot of decisions were taken at this time to try to get funding for the movie and they were all to the shows detriment. Making 8 episodes instead of 6, filming without a studio audience, bringing in a female character etc. all damaged the quality of the show imo. The fact that Series X had none of these things is telling...
And yes, it would be interesting to hear your views on Beyond a Joke as it is nice to have some debate about the actual episodes...
For me, Series 7 is more miss than hit, but it does have some brilliant moments, the Ace Rimmer opening to Stoke Me A Clipper is one of my favourite Red Dwarf moments ever. Overall as a series though, I find a lot of it grates and although this feeling of not liking it has lessened over time, it still sticks out like a sore thumb in terms of quality than the other series, and that was a feeling that returned when I watched BTE. In fact, now, I have, and would always much rather watch 7 than BTE, which I thought it was generally woeful.
Oh. A damp squib
I really like series 7, but can understand why people didn't because of the "drama" element. I also loved "Last Human" for the same reason.
The only series I can honestly say I dislike is series 8, which seemed to be a reaction to the complaintso f series 7 not being funny enough by throwing in a joke every other sentence. It's a shame because I liked the premise, just not the execution.
I did LOVE the series 8 "Star Wars" trailer, though. There are full episodes that I like less.
I didn't like it because of the "not funny" element. . .
Nope, you're not the only one. I'm fairly critical when it comes to series VI (I know, controversial!) VII and VIII, I still liked them a lot though. VII's jarring style change was my biggest problem with the series, but it still had some strong moments. Tikka to Ride is an example of Red Dwarf at its best, shaking the formulaic approach of series VI. Throughout there was a poignancy to some of the plots and the character moments; a bit of maturity seeping into characters that came across as inevitable, but natural, considering all they'd been through.
Series 7 would have been one of the best - but sadly Chris Barrie was selfish. :x
To be honest, most of the reason the "Fans" give for disliking series 7 are pretty ridiculous. Series 8 was appalling but I think Series 3 was pretty dreadful (with the exception of Marooned).