An important question for Neil Old

Discussion in 'THE AIGBURTH ARMS' started by Ant E, Jan 23, 2018.

  1. Bluey

    Bluey Science Officer

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    I don't need to be asked to share my opinion, Ant. And it's my opinion that this is a terrible thread.
     
  2. neilold

    neilold Flight Co-Ordinator

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    In my opinion this thread could go either way
     
  3. Bluey

    Bluey Science Officer

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    In my opinion this thread should go away.
     
  4. neilold

    neilold Flight Co-Ordinator

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    In my opinion this thread could go away
     
  5. Ant E

    Ant E Flight Co-Ordinator

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    I have another important question for @neilold

    I’m engaging serious mode for a second here...

    What on earth is your avatar all about? Whilst I sort of see the point you are trying to make - I worry you’re turning two very different crimes into race issues.

    Stephen Lawrence was a black youth killed by white racists

    Lee Rigby was a white soldier killed by two Islamic extremists ie terrorists

    Now there’s an argument in itself as to why we call the brown killers “terrorists” and the white ones “racists” (when you could argue both apply to each of the attackers) but the main point I'm making is; should we really play top trumps with murder victims?!

    Also, a quick google shows that Lee Rigby had a statue made in his memory in Woolwich http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-34779650

    And a memorial plaque in his home town http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...oldier-unveiled-in-his-hometown-10142183.html

    Both are awful crimes but let’s not turn it into a competition eh?

    Just my opinion, respect yours, and sure you have a different one, like!
     
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  6. neilold

    neilold Flight Co-Ordinator

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    The point is that stephen Lawrence had those without pressure from local groups and authorities. I think you'll find its the people who decided that Lawrence wasn't due such scrutiny that are playing top trumps
     
  7. neilold

    neilold Flight Co-Ordinator

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    Not that your opinion is not valid also. It just differs from mine
     
  8. Nikki the Great

    Nikki the Great Flight Co-Ordinator

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    Are you aware that Lee Rigby's family have asked for his picture to stop being used in these political point scoring campaigns, orchestrated by the far right Neil? It's very sad to see people disrespect his memory and the wishes of his family, for the sake of making a point like this.
     
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  9. Ant E

    Ant E Flight Co-Ordinator

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    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
     
  10. jmc2000

    jmc2000 Deck Sergeant

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    By "those", do you mean memorials, tributes, etc.?

    In that particular case, suspects were arrested but not charged, and it was nearly twenty years before anyone was convicted of the murder. Due to concerns that the victim's race prejudiced police handling of the case, there was an inquiry, which found that the force was "institutionally racist".

    Read up on the case and subsequent inquiries. It's not like there was an immediate knee-jerk reaction to celebrate the victim and his family. The sheer number of tributes, memorials, etc., is probably society's attempt to make amends for collectively getting it wrong, and to compensate the family for their long struggle and wait for some justice.
     
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  11. Ant E

    Ant E Flight Co-Ordinator

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    That’s three different opinions @neilold all challenging your viewpoint. As Nikki said, you’re always whinging on about a lack of politics on the forum, and when there is you don’t bother to reply!
     
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  12. neilold

    neilold Flight Co-Ordinator

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    Jmc you say societies attempt to make amends. Too make amends for what? Since when is it societies role to decide on what should or shouldn't have amends made for it? Furthermore who are these people you talk about, and what gives then authority to decide what 'society' does or doesn't think? Why compensate that family, just what is it that makes that family more worthwhile than others that have being wronged?
     
  13. Nikki the Great

    Nikki the Great Flight Co-Ordinator

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    To make amends for the lack of justice in that case. There's probably STILL people involved in the murder who haven't been brought to justice and there's still an ongoing investigation into the corruption of the police force. 20 years later! Lee Rigby's killers were instantly caught and brought to justice.

    It's NOT down to the little people of society to make amends for the vile things the Lawrence family went through, but people came together to do so out of compassion for their suffering and lack of support from the people in the justice system who SHOULD have been doing so, but weren't.

    Also you haven't addressed a particular point I've raised with you - your avatar is a facebook post by Britain First (it actually says it in your avatar). Lee Rigby's family have asked many times for them to stop using his picture. So why are you using it? Do you realise that with that avatar you're disrespecting the memory and family of BOTH those murder victims?
     
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  14. jmc2000

    jmc2000 Deck Sergeant

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    See previous!

    Well, that's just how it works, there are some things we're collectively responsible for, as a society. Criminal injustice and institutional wrongdoing fall in that category. Agents of the state work for us.

    If newspapers run a load of front page stories about injustice, and the government ends up holding an inquiry, and someone is eventually brought to justice, that's a reflection of public mood. If the opposite happens, that's also a reflection of public mood. We can't wipe our hands of this stuff.

    It's more a collective thing - a tide of opinion surging in a certain direction. There'll always be some outliers who disagree.

    Sometimes a particular person or case becomes a focal point for public discussion, and symbolises a whole class of people.

    There's no way you could make amends to all victims of institutional racism. You couldn't even list them. But, by trying to fix a high profile case, you show that the state has learned a lesson and will do better in future.

    I hope all victims of institutional racism take comfort from these late tributes and memorials, because it shows that something has changed for the better in society. Equally, I hope past victims of institutional homophobia take comfort from the late tributes to Alan Turing. You can't make amends to everyone, but you can make amends to someone, to show you won't be repeating your mistakes any time soon.

    If you're complaining about a perceived mismatch between different classes of wrong - e.g, the number of tributes when it's racism + murder + institutional racism versus the number when it's terrorism + murder - then do actually read up on the tributes and memorials. Don't twist the facts to make the difference seem starker!

    Also, don't forget that a major variable is our collective sense of culpability and shame.

    As a society, we feel less guilt and responsibility for acts of terrorism than we do for criminal injustice or institutional racism, which are done by agents of our own society

    Consider a terrible natural disaster with mass casualties. Even if hundreds of people died, we would feel less guilt again - because how can we take any blame for what the weather does?

    Making amends isn't just about how bad or regrettable something is. It's about how much responsibility we bear, and how much we feel we can (or should) be doing to show we're sorry.
     
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  15. neilold

    neilold Flight Co-Ordinator

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    Interesting points
     
  16. neilold

    neilold Flight Co-Ordinator

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    Sorry Nikki, to answer your point. Yes, I did watch byker grove
     
  17. Abe

    Abe Deck Sergeant

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    Do you have anything to say about them?
     
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  18. Nikki the Great

    Nikki the Great Flight Co-Ordinator

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    Eh you know what Neil, you should honestly consider staying well away from politics and not whine when they're not being discussed. Cos you clearly don't understand them at all, and anyone on this forum would have to hit themselves in the head with a brick multiple times to achieve your level of intellect.

    I suppose people like Deep_Steve_in_God_knows what_Century will probably think I'm a bully, but honestly it boils my urine when someone with white straight male privilege tries to find reasons to feel hard done by in the world, and instinctively isn't happy when people are praising someone in a minority group.
     
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  19. Nikki the Great

    Nikki the Great Flight Co-Ordinator

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    And yes, I am on my period.
     
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  20. Bluey

    Bluey Science Officer

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    "It boils my urine" is a wonderful phrase and one I will endeavour to use frequently in my posts.
     
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