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Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by jmc2000, Mar 26, 2009.
I liked most of the things you mentioned.
Concerning the continuity issue surrounding 18 months later, I think this episode is set before baby Lister is returned to Earth.
I'm not convinced Kochanski ever carried him to term herself. The original plan in Ouroboros - before Lister figured out that the baby was his younger self- was that Kochanski would put the foetus into an invitro unit (artificial womb) on her own ship.
When that all changed, I assume that they did the same thing on Starbug... although why they'd have such a device on Starbug is a whole other issue. (Maybe they salvaged it from another ship, or knocked one up themselves, or used the time-drive to jaunt to somewhere they could swipe the stuff?)
All during the earlier episodes I assumed that embryonic Lister was cooking away in the background somewhere. Some time before the events of Epideme I think he took him back to Earth. I say before Epideme because the events of Epideme lead quickly into Nanarchy which leads directly into series 8 where they were in the tank.
They said in Tikka To Ride, that dimensional anomalies had expanded the cargo deck (by 210%?) but this show and a few others had to tackle the problem of no Red Dwarf by making out that Starbug was huge. Starbug expanded in series VI to allow the lads to believably live on it, then it got even bigger in VII. Really some of series VII would've worked better on Red Dwarf, but oh well..
After hating RD 7 for a long time I had a similar experience earlier this decade. My original judgement of 7 was coloured by the major changes from 6 (changes that at the time I strongly disliked), but now I have a whole new appreciation for it. I love the series from episode 3 onwards, and I'm rapidly gaining a fondness for Tikka ( though I still can't say I particularly like Stoke, apart from the jousting scene), and it's nice to find that other people are also changing their opinions of 7.
Duct Soup is often despised by fans (it's been cited as a least favourite episode three times so far in this thread), but it's now in my all-time top ten along with Beyond a Joke, Blue and Epideme.
I've ALWAYS thought Blue was hilarious. Can't say the same for Duct Soup though I don't think it's really so bad as to earn the amount of ire it often receives from certain corners. It's mostly just kinda boring, not really horrible.
My problem with VII was always the overall lack of Chris Barrie. Rimmer's my favorite character, so yea, I'm always going to be a bit biased against it. Doesn't mean it isn't funny though, just not enough Rimmer.
I think no episode sucks more than Oroborus. Which just sucks and also pisses on so manyt hings from the past, making early lister int he cat seem so different, him being his own time traveling dad, it just makes me mad. Also I miss rimmer so much haha, and the sequence with him, lister and kochanski in the locker area is torture. She comes off as such a lothable character int hat episode you instantly new things were never going to be the same.
Yes, I hated all that nonsense about Lister being his own father. Utterly pointless and blemishes an episode that I otherwise enjoy.
Totally agree. THe Lister being his own father is silly in my opinion. Also, watch the documentary about the US version of Red Dwarf (on the series V DVD) and Doug Naylor says that in that version Kochanski was really stuck up and it didn't work cos of that. Erm look at series VII. I could never believe her and Lister could have ever had a relationship and she was annoying and stuck up. I always felt the original Kochanski had class but was fun.
Really? I loved Tikka To Ride, and thought the series started getting worse after the first 2 or 3 episodes with a few exceptions. Epideme was quite good but I found Beyond A Joke really weak. Interesting how people have oposing opinions even about series VII which most people didn't like that much
Tikka To Ride for me was as good as any previous Red Dwarf, worked for me on many levels, as good as any Series VI episode for me. The seccond episode was okay, but it rapidly declined with Ouroborous and didn't recover really, IMO. It was really Series VIII until I started to split my sides laughing again, and that also tailed off into cringe-worthy scenes by the time that Dinosaur and Only The Good turned up.
Yeah, to me "Tikka To Ride" seemed like series VI, I was really happy, then it (the series) started to slide in quality.
The new CGI on Tikka to Ride was terrific, they should have redone the CGI on all episodes.
One of the only small disappointments I had when watching the DVDs was Doug`s tendency to blame others for things on the show. In the case of Kochanski, he blamed Chloe for making the character much more dislikeable in Series VII than was written. Doug must certainly shoulder a large chunk of the blame though as he failed to create a good character who Lister would realistically have fallen for.
I didn't pick up that at all.
I think the main problem with Kochanski was the viewers expectations of what they thought the character was like based on a few lines by Claire Grogan. Really, how much does she actually say? First in The End, where there's a bit of flirting where she tell Lister the captain wants to speak with him (and they hadn't fleshed out the relationship fully then, she was just the girl he hungered for from afar.) The second time she had married his future self, so she was in a happy relaxed mood. The third time she was a Psiren fantasy. She certainly is far less posh than Chloe's version, but we don't know that was Doug and Rob's intention.
Last Human certainly portrays a more Chloe like Kochanski. (Although she is incredibly saucy as well!) I think she was always supposed to be someone who appears out of Lister's league.
The thing is they made out that they actually had a relationship. I think even with the original Kochanski's sparse invovement in the shows, it seemed like she was out of his league but she was a bit of a flirt, or maybe liked a bit of rough With the new version, she seemed like the sort of girl who wouldn't give Lister the time of day, like pretty much ignored him. That might've worked if they never altered the history to say they went out. I can't imagine the new Kochanski and Lister ever going out, I just can't
Doug says it in the Series VIII documentary.
Ouroborous: Lister fathering himself is nice emotionally, and if I don't think, it almost makes sense when he talks about his circling around time as a "holding pattern" that makes sure the human race is still around.
Two things: the "holding pattern" if it makes sense even a little bit would only apply up until the point just before he goes back in time. From then on, he's just the last guy alive who can die at any moment.
No one's offspring is genetically identical to himself, unless he gets himself cloned. That baby has only half of Dave's DNA, the rest is Kochanski. The baby isn't Dave. I suppose we could just look on Lister's idea that the baby was him as something he was mistaken about.
It is theoretically possible, if negligibly likely, for this actually to work. Although half the DNA is, indeed, Kochanski's, there's no reason why the particular genes inherited can't come from her. She may be heterozygous for genes Lister is homozygous in and vice versa, but still provide an inheritence pattern that can produce an exact match of one half of Lister's DNA
But how would the first Lister be born anyway?
Kochanski is (adult) Lister's mother in the first place and so half her DNA is his DNA.
So adult Lister has:
Half his fathers DNA(his own) ++++++++ And half Kochanski's DNA
Adult Kochanski has:
Half her DNA +++++++++++++++++++++++++ Half her DNA (which is identical to her half of Lister's DNA above)
So baby Lister has:
Half his fathers DNA(his own) ++++++++ Half her DNA (which is identical to her half of Lister's DNA above)
From Lister +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From Kochanski
So Lister got half his DNA from himself and half from Kochanski.
Obviously, the probability of this is low, as meiosis exactly like this is unlikely, but it explains Ouroboros, as it is an infinite loop.