DUCT SOUP and BLUE

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by jmc2000, Mar 26, 2009.

  1. acerimmer_165

    acerimmer_165 Supply Officer

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    Kochanski is (adult) Lister's mother in the first place and so half her DNA is his DNA.

    So adult Lister has:

    Half his fathers DNA(his own) ++++++++ And half Kochanski's DNA

    Adult Kochanski has:

    Half her DNA +++++++++++++++++++++++++ Half her DNA (which is identical to her half of Lister's DNA above)

    So baby Lister has:

    Half his fathers DNA(his own) ++++++++ Half her DNA (which is identical to her half of Lister's DNA above)
    From Lister +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From Kochanski

    So Lister got half his DNA from himself and half from Kochanski.

    Obviously, the probability of this is low, as meiosis exactly like this is unlikely, but it explains Ouroboros, as it is an infinite loop.
     
  2. Mardroid

    Mardroid Console Officer

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    Your thinking about it wrong. It's a predestination view of time-travel. There is no first or last Lister, Lister is, and always was/will be, his own father. (I think.)

    Actually, it's probably a good thing his relationship with Kochanski didn't work out if you think about it. Her being his mother and all.
     
  3. telegramsam

    telegramsam First Technician

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    Hence the snake eating its own tail.
     
  4. acerimmer_165

    acerimmer_165 Supply Officer

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    Exactly ... Ouroboros

    Now I don't know if that actually contributed to the discussion, but I thought that I'd sound smart if I said it :-D
    Hmmm.... I might make that my sig :lol:

    EDIT : I just did :-)
     
  5. magnusgreel

    magnusgreel First Technician

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    Funny thing, not once did it come up that perhaps Listerchanski should leave each other alone because of its being incestuous. CK just didn't want him for the most part, but not for that reason apparently. Dave kept after her.

    It may make an interesting sort of sense. Their bizarre situation changes everything. Maybe even incest as a taboo seems ridiculous when there are only one man and one human in the universe. Besides, without incest Dave wouldn't exist in the first place! (Test-tube incest...?)

    I'm going to have to go through these good posts on the Ouroborous problem again.
     
  6. Fairfax

    Fairfax Catering Officer

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    So the first Lister would have to have just appeared by magic then? As people may have guessed, I hate this explanation for Lister`s birth. I think that one of the charms of Lister was that he was an everyman and it was an interesting idea to see such a nobody as the last human.
     
  7. Mardroid

    Mardroid Console Officer

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    By saying 'first' it suggests there was an original timeline where no Lister came back. I'm saying that with the predestination view of time travel no such timeline exists. He is the first Lister.

    I know where you're coming from though. I'm not always that keen on that idea either in sci-fi either although it can be interesting. (I even wrote a story based on that idea, future events affecting the past in a loop, I mean, although I did it in such a way that it allowed for an original timeline.) It amused me in this comedy context.

    Just out of curiosity, did you find Kryten and Lister's escape from the Inquisitor annoying too? I.e. future Kryten saving present day Lister and Kryten? That's basically the predestination thing I was talking about... although they changed the rules later in that same episode somewhat. It bugged me a bit, but I have to admit I really like that episode overall.
     
  8. Fairfax

    Fairfax Catering Officer

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    If I`m honest, plot holes like that aren`t as big a gripe with me as character discrepancies are.

    For example, in Tikka it doesn`t irk me that much that Kennedy shooting himself completely contradicts the explanation at the start of the ep. What bugs me a lot more however is that Lister`s actions just don`t ring true throughout. If he was going to use the time wand then surely he wouldn`t just go to get a curry (what about meeting up with Kochanski, his friends, seeing what had happened to the world?). Also, as others mentioned in another thread, why not just stay on Earth? There is a similar problem in Stasis Leak I guess but at least the writers made some attempt to explain it there.
     
  9. jaybo1973

    jaybo1973 Catering Officer

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    Back to the point of the OP. I still cant enjoy the episodes in the same way as the rest of Red dwarf. The comedy seems to false, especially the kachanski lines. Its almost like its someone else trying red dwarf humar and it doesn't quite work. I feel this throughout the series. It almost gets back to red dwarf in series 8 when lister is trying to get rimmer to talk to him in the cell when reading the magazine article. good old bunk room humar. After this, it is lost again.
     
  10. doggett

    doggett Second Technician

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    You forgot the whole, "he looks at you the way a starving man looks at a packet of peanuts. He can't wait to get the wrapper off and taste the salty goodness."
     
  11. Ronstar

    Ronstar Third Technician

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    The whole issue of time travel in sci-fi has intrigued me for as long as I can remember. There seem to mostly be two types of time-line used in sci-fi, which I've self-termed the "Back to the Future" and the "Bill and Ted" models. The "Back to the Future" model allows the changing of history, with possible problems such as erasing yourself from existance, whereas in the "Bill and Ted" model time is static, can't be changed, and eveything that you do in the 'past' was always a part of time anyway. The major drawback from a human point of view to this second model is that there isn't really any free-will, since not only is history 'fixed', so is the future (after all, Rufus travels from Bill and Ted's futures to make sure that his own history happens correctly).

    Of course, with stand-alone movies it's easy to write in such a way that dogmatically adheres to one model or the other. In "The Terminator", the static history version is chosen, with John Connor sending someone back to protect his mom which in turn actually caues himself to be born in the first place. Whilst the characters of Sarah Connor, Kyle Reese, and even the terminator all go about believing that the future is what you make for yourselves, the events of the movie unfold to show that their futures were already made for them and they just fulfilled their destinies. Annoyingly, "Terminator 2" goes on to change this approach, with it becoming possible to 'avert' Judgement Day (although "Terminator 3" goes on to say that Judgement Day was simply delayed).

    Why talk about "The Terminator" on a Red Dwarf forum? Well, just to point out that if just two installments of a movie franchise both written by the same person can contradict themselves on time travel, with a show like "Red Dwarf" that has always attempted to put humour first and science second, and which evolved in format over so many years, we just have to live with the fact that its approach to time travel is going to change - in "Future Echoes", "Stasis Leak", "Ouroboros" and "Cassandra" we have static time: the characters are totally unable to change past or future, an end up fulfilling destinies (both deliberately and accidentally, and even despite their best efforts). But in "Timeslides" and "Tikka To Ride" we have a switch over to time being distinctly flexible (with the usual sci-fi caveat that those causing the changes in the timelines appear to retain their original memories - to the point where Rimmer at the "Timeslides" was completely unaware that was alive (actually, it tends to be a good question to sort the die-hard "Red Dwarf" fans out from the boys by asking "How did Rimmer die?" - Radiation leak being the wrong answer!)).

    Of course, as already pointed out, "Tikka to Ride" manages to not only contradict itself (when the future Dwarfers kill their presents day selves, the present day selves survive and the future Dwarfers are eradicated, yet when Kennedy assassinates himself, the present Kennedy stays dead and the future Kennedy ceases to exist - no mention of the paradox causing dimensional disturbances!), it also contradicts the previous episode (much comedy was made from the revelation that the time drive ONLY travels through time, and not space, yet suddenly the time drive becomes a 'go anywhere and anywhen device' - and yeah, I know there's the stuff about both realities merging, but even in te future reality the Dwarfers needed both the time drive and a faster-than-light drive to go about space-time hopping), and also portray the characters as cartoon stereotypes of their former selves (Kryten turns into a twittering idiot, Lister becomes one-dimensionally obsessed with curry despite all the other truly amazing things that could be done with the time drive), Rimmer becomes even more of a nagging nay-sayer than ever before and Cat... well, I guess the Cat was still just the Cat. To this day I've never been able to watch "Tikka To Ride" without thinking "What the hell happened to Red Dwarf?!" - to me, it is outstandingly poorly written.

    And I think that just set the tone for the whole of the rest of series VII for me. I've never been able to get 'into' it - the closest was after I re-read "Last Human" and was able to appreciate what Doug Naylor was aiming for with series VII, but it just fell flat. "Stoke Me A Clipper" I enjoyed the first time around, but the humour tailed off throughout the episode. "Ouroboros" explores the deep issue of Lister's origins in a way tha I can appreciate, but the laughs are very limited (I think it's only the "It's an obscene phone call" gag that's ever made me laugh out loud). "Duct Soup"... All the gags in that just seem very contrived and unfunny to me, and when it's revealed at the end that the whole advenure was a waste of time, the thought always strikes me that so was the episode itself. "Blue" brought in yet more of the Kryten vs. Kochanski soap opera that just jars me too much, and the "Rimmer Experience" routine, whilst funny the first time around doesn't really amuse me any more (though not even an uptight git like me can disrespect the munchkin song!). "Beyond A Joke" suffers again from contrived gags amidst a story that tries to be too serious.

    By the time "Epideme" aired, I had zero expectations of the series, and yet for the first time in series VII I found myself finding the episode to be hillarious - the virus itself was a supreme character creation and the amputation scene has me in stitches still. And the moment when the dust settles, Epideme has been defeated and Kryten and Kochanski walk off to contgratulate themselves (Cat unconscious on the floor, still holing his pose) - only to suddenly remember that Lister is still dead is just true comedy genious.

    "Nanarchy", whilst in my opinion isn't quite as good as "Epideme", is still a favourite episode of mine. It neatly ties up the mystery of what happened to Red Dwarf without actually contradicting series VI too much, and it also contains probably my favourite Red Dwarf moment ever - Lister rumaging around through the cargo crates, finding the watch, and staring in silence at it for a moment before THE Holly triumphantly reappears!

    I had and still have big problems with most of series VII and whilst I can appreciate what was being aimed for I just feel that it failed at the first hurdle with most of its objectives. It tried to be a miniature Red Dwarf movie eight times over, but was let down by poor writing, lack of imagination and far to few laughs for me. On the flip side, there then followed series VIII, the other hotly debated series, which I found to be rather consistently funny - however whilst series VII can be rewatched without losing much, series VIII diminishes every time I watch it. Sure, it's crammed full of gags but they're not the witty flowing gags of old Red Dwarf, they're very ephemeral. The kind of jokes you get in emails - they're funny the first time you hear them, but the next time they're just dialogue with all the humour removed. And because most of the dialogue in series VIII *is* gags, it leaves very little left behind once you've stopped finding the jokes funny.

    I hasten to add that it's never bothered me with series VII and VIII about the changes of direction of the show - Red Dwarf has been constantly on the change ever since series II came about. It seems that a lot of fans forget that the whole of series I was set on the ship with almost no guest cast and not a GELF or Simulant in sight, and yet can accept fully that by the time series V and VI came about the cast and characters were vastly different, Red Dwarf disappeared and there was a new baddy almost every episode. The show was even by then recognisable really only in name and spirit, and so to reinvent it again for series VII and VIII just seemed natural - I have a lot of respect for the decision to bring back the ship and crew for series VIII as it gave an opportunity for stories that otherwise wouldn't have been possible.

    But anyway... Sorry, to sum up - for me I'm afraid "Duct Soup" is still my least favourite episode ever!

    Ronnie
     

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