DVD Details: Latest News

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by Andrew, May 8, 2009.

  1. dvd3500

    dvd3500 Catering Officer

    Messages:
    439
    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2008
    No one seems to have pointed out how all three specials and the making of were shown on one night. Everyone I know waited for Monday to roll around and most of them recorded it. Seeing a dip between night 1 and 2 etc. is made all the more complicated in this instance by the fact that you could see essentially the exact same content only a few days later.

    Like I said, most of my firends knew the show was going to be on Monday but I think there is a real possibility that some people watched on Friday and when they found out it would be out in all three parts on Monday simply waited until Monday.

    I think we all agree the show works a lot better linked together.

    Just an observation.

    The only small point I want to make is that I think DVD pre-orders are actually very important in this day and age. Here are some of the reeasons:

    1. The content is often available free and somewhat legal online (dave ja vu etc) as well as through friends who record it. If you vote with your money for somethign that you can more or less get for free (legally or not) that is a strong indication of people feeling they are getting value for their money. Particularly in this economy voting with your wallet makes a profound statement.

    2. Pre orders are abotu the only kind of sale that is reliably trackable. With eBay and used DVDs being easily sold thorugh a myriad of channels, once a product (DVD) has sold its first rounsd it is hard to keep track the overall impact. I would be interested to know if GNP has kept track of how often the older DVDs have been sold by second and thrid tier retailers

    3. There was a very good third reason but it came in my head sat there for a while and went clean out again.
     
  2. jacksmith

    jacksmith Catering Officer

    Messages:
    389
    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2009
    Location:
    Halesowen, West Midlands, Earth
    You know the viewers may have dropped, but throughout the monday the viewers went up, doesnt that say something?
    Also, when series 1 was shown the viewing figures went down since the first episode, yet again down to many things: people not liking it, not knowing when it's on etc etc.
    Britains got talent and everything else that is a ratings magnet lost to Red Dwarf in quite a few households, that's a feat in of itself.
     
  3. Pete78

    Pete78 Third Technician

    Messages:
    28
    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    The dip was not limited to Saturday, but yes, as I conceded, there were mitigating factors. The slump was not as bad as the raw data suggested. But viewership fell significantly.

    Red Dwarf's next home game was the crucial second installment of a three-part audition for the show's survival. In no way is that comparable to Man U against Nobody FC.

    Not entirely, no. And no one did.

    A win would have been viewing figures which resulted in the general consensus (not just among fans but among critics) that Red Dwarf was back, and destined to return in a new series.

    This is a terrible analogy. Because winning a medal is a complete achievement in itself. The success of a hypothetical four part special is not determined by ep one, but by the four eps: if ep one draws a massive audience and the following eps, hours of teduim, retain a fraction of that audience, the special is a failure. The decathlon is the valid analogy: the gold medal is won by sustained achievement.

    I refer the right honourable gentleman to the previous answer.
     
  4. Pete78

    Pete78 Third Technician

    Messages:
    28
    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    In EVERY post, I conceded mitigating factors. This is sheer distortion. It is easy to misquote people and then put foolish words into their mouths such as:

    Let's dismiss the misquote, already exposed. The second implication -- suggested by nothing, supported by nothing -- is that ratings are the only standard I apply. It's easy to counter my arguments by "bringing the same logic to the table" when the logic is of your creation. Ratings are arbitrary -- in its strong first season, Cheers was the lowest rated show on the network. Critical acclaim saved Cheers. Ratings are not sacrosanct. But when ratings, media reaction and the response of fans and casual viewers (online and in everyday life) accords to a significant degree with one's own judgement -- when all these standards are applied -- the argument is substantial.

    Another mitigating factor, yes. But replace "hugely successful" with "a result which left the Red Dwarf franchise in limbo".

    It is, and no one did -- a dip of a million does not reflect a million dissatisfied viewers, as I stated again and again. But a programme maker dismisses the loss of a significant tranche of his audience at his peril, especially when that loss reinforces the judgement of the media and many fans.
    I never argued that BTE was terrible. One of the eps would have passed for good (average in places) in the context of a good series -- the huge, make-or-break demands of a comeback outing meant the shows were subject to a different standard. But in any context, the laugh gaps were too numerous and uncomfortably long in places. This has to be rectified.
     
  5. Andrew

    Andrew Executive Officer

    Messages:
    1,665
    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    No, suggesting this bizarre state of constant concession is distortion. You keep repeating the same 'lost half the audience' statement with minimal refinement, minimal acknowledgment of the mitigation. (Not least the one that aggregates it to 'a third', but also the point that percentages are a stupid way to dissect this.) You keep comparing to American Network broadcasting without adding adjustment, and you keep talking as if the viewership - at least the bulk of it - concurred with your taste. You talk about critical reaction without acknowledging the nature of Red Dwarf critique prior to this special. Or, indeed, who the 'the critics' actually are.

    How does that make any sense? Limbo for whom? Viewers? Commissioners? 'You not knowing' isn't limbo. 'Fans thinking this may be the end' isn't limbo. 'I've read some people online who want it to stop' isn't limbo. (You might not be aware that most series have ended with 'limbo'...until the next series is announced.)

    It was hugely successful in TV terms. That's categorical for anyone who knows what they're talking about. Which is to say: anyone who isn't judging this as 'the return of Seinfeld'. Who can get past the term 'lost'. You seem to totally misunderstand the scale of the success of those numbers, despite that significance being repeatedly stated. You reject apt analogy because it doesn't mesh with your perspective, rather than because it's not actually appropriate.

    The decathalon? Maybe. But this won ALL the events. The latter ones by a lesser margin, but still a margin that constitutes 'walking it'. That IS sustained achievement, and an overall victory. Two million seeing episode three that weekend is like a final race being won by a margin so vast that the runner could afford to stop and take a break before crossing the line. You've been told this, but still you talk about fractions.

    See, you just keep repeating this point. But 'loss of his audience' remains a ridiculous statement when you're talking about this kind of result. As does the bizarre idea that understanding the vastness of this success - appreciating it, and touting it loudly, and accurately, as extraordinary - is the same as ignoring what the details of it means.

    The difference, though, is that the makers have a firmer grasp on what it really means than you do. That's just the way it is. You genuinely don't have a firmer grasp on the implications of those numbers than GNP and Dave. Simply because those discussions aren't happening in public, doesn't mean they're not happening. But they're not happening in line with your analysis - because your analysis is predicated on either some basic misunderstandings or, worse, wilful bias.

    And once again you mention the 'media and many fans'. But without conceding the nature of Red Dwarf reviews, or the notion that 'what the fans think' is more complex than 'stuff I read online'.

    If this was meant to show you are totally balanced and objective, it hasn't succeeded.
     
  6. Pete78

    Pete78 Third Technician

    Messages:
    28
    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2009
    I conceded it in two separate posts on this page before you made the accusation. Hardly "distortion".

    The only shows which end in limbo -- I would define limbo as fans wondering if a future exists -- are shows with ratings dips or critical failures.

    If it was "hugely successful", a new series would be a likelihood and not a possibility, and would have been predicted by critics: the shows -- with Lister longing for more life -- were obviously an audition. I read a huge number of reviews, from the media to blogs, and NOT ONCE did I read the opinion "Red Dwarf will return for a new series".

    I introduced a comparison with American network broadcasting once (and responded to another poster's comparison later). My example: Seinfeld loses half its audience. Now, make any adjustment you wish to. The number is different, yes. But is it SIGNIFICANTLY different? After adjustment, a loss of such magnitude in America does not become a surge of success on British TV!
    Posters in a forum are not expected to furnish footnotes of scientific accuracy!

    You could have made this accusation, if I hadn't posted on April 16:

    But let's end the back and forth. I've stated my opinion (and rebuttals are time-consuming...)
     
  7. Andrew

    Andrew Executive Officer

    Messages:
    1,665
    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Conceding only to reiterate the same basic points again isn't really the same as taking the points on board and working them into a deeper version of the debate.

    Well aside from this being wholly inaccurate - the future of any number of shows are open to question at the end of a series - again, you're clearly talking about American shows. Since, over here, when the creative choice is more often in the hands of the makers than the broadcasters, that state of limbo is far more constant. This is something both audiences and critics are more than aware of.

    I'll say it again: with the exception of Series VIII, where the return of Chris and aim for 52 episodes had been well-publicised, EVERY series of Red Dwarf was in limbo. Every single one. Right from the first damn series that got pulled and remounted. Nobody ever knew whether the writers wanted to go on. Or whether the channel would. And no critic ever wrote "Red Dwarf will return for a new series" while reviwing the current one. Not based on optimism, and certainly not based on research.

    That's not 'a bad thing'. It's the true nature of British TV production. Almost every show goes to limbo after broadcast.

    So is a new series not 'likely'? Who have you spoken to to gain this insider knowledge?

    If a critic states a show will be back, that makes it happen? What kind of arrogant critic gets to make a statement like that? They don't say it because they don't know. Acknowledging that, accepting that, isn't somehow a dig at the show. Who ever wrote 'Only Fools and Horses will be back' in a TV review? At all? Especially only based on liking the episodes?

    Some said they WANTED it to return. That's something else entirely. Saying it categorically will return, when you've no idea, no backstage insight, makes you an idiot. It seems fair enough to me that most writers would rather not appear so. Wouldn't claim a thing they didn't know to be the case. Even 100% positive reviews wouldn't suddenly make it okay for writers with no inside access to say "the show will come back". Because they don't know.

    So you really haven't understood the argument at all. Still talking 'halves', still talking 'loss', never taking those adjustments on board; and still failing to comprehend that the only way this correlation works is if that dip still made for a show that surpassed all expectations for the network. (Oh, and there was a Cheers comparison in there as well.)

    And still assuming that understanding the success is the same as ignoring the details. Or learning any lessons.

    No, but if your analysis is flawed, your comparisons unreasonable, rebuttal is more than fair.

    Indeed. I look forward to not reading anything further.

    Back to being a DVD thread, I think.
     
  8. petetranter

    petetranter Catering Officer

    Messages:
    411
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2009
    Location:
    Cambridgeshire
    I think it's best left alone as there is obviously not going to be any concession on either side.

    I would just like to add that, purely by chance, as I was travelling home from a gig, I caught a discussion about the show on Radio 5.
    I had been away over the Easter weekend so missed the broadcast and also any web based discussions, so this was the first thing I had heard about it.
    I was delighted to hear the presenters raving about the phenomenal viewing figures and how BBC2 must be kicking themselves because it rated higher than whatever it was they had been showing. I was personally staggered to hear the viewing figures were so high compared to anything Dave had shown before.
     
  9. petetranter

    petetranter Catering Officer

    Messages:
    411
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2009
    Location:
    Cambridgeshire
    Oh and I'm sure one of the presenters said - "..surely this opens the door for a new series."
     
  10. tortexturtle

    tortexturtle First Technician

    Messages:
    155
    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2007
    Location:
    TX, USA
    I really can only speculate by reading all this debating that Pete09 just wants some reassurance. (Apologies ahead of time if this is not the case, Pete09).

    Reassurance that
    a) new Dwarf will be made. (When the time is right, I'm sure an announcement will be made) and
    b) when it is, some of the criticism of the specials will be considered in improving upon the upcoming series (I'm sure this will also be the case, otherwise I don't think GNP would be so interested to ask what we all thought of the new specials)
     
  11. dvd3500

    dvd3500 Catering Officer

    Messages:
    439
    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2008
    Is it me or does a lot of this simply have no point anymore?
     
  12. RedDwarffan2982

    RedDwarffan2982 First Technician

    Messages:
    234
    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2009
    Just thought I'd mention that play told me my copy will be sent out within 24 hours so that hopfully means I will get in on the day of release
     
  13. dvd3500

    dvd3500 Catering Officer

    Messages:
    439
    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2008
    Cool!
    Maybe Amazon will do the same!
     
  14. Daniel

    Daniel Console Officer

    Messages:
    3,627
    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2009
    Location:
    Harlow, Essex, England
    That is usually the objective for the likes of Play and Amazon, although it doesn't always happen. Sometimes you can even get things BEFORE the official release! Not often I find, but it happens. Once though I had to wait about a week for it to arrive, due to slow stuff at Play and Royal Mail being.... well... Royal Mail basically.

    Hopefully it'll arrive on the release day though (roll on Monday!)
     
  15. dvd3500

    dvd3500 Catering Officer

    Messages:
    439
    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2008
    My time window in Ol' Blighty is only until Thursday. I hope it arrives at my UK address by then.
    Would I be so desperate as to buy it in a store if it doesn't show up on time?

    YES
     
  16. wannabe

    wannabe First Technician

    Messages:
    141
    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2004
    Location:
    NodnoL UK
    LOL :lol:
     
  17. RedDwarffan2982

    RedDwarffan2982 First Technician

    Messages:
    234
    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2009
    Yeah I heard that "Game" Ship early so it arrives a day or 2 before release. Well I hope it is here monday as that is the day I have no school exams so I'm off allday. But If it comes tuesday I have a 2 and a half hour exam and won't be able to spend all day watching it. Well either way I just recived and email saying they have dispatched it.
     
  18. Daniel

    Daniel Console Officer

    Messages:
    3,627
    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2009
    Location:
    Harlow, Essex, England
    Ditto. Good news: they say 3-5 days but I have had it arrive in 1-2 before now (could be here by Saturday :-D)

    Bad news: they do use Royal Mail. 'nuff said
     
  19. plagiarize

    plagiarize Third Technician

    Messages:
    20
    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2009
    i wish i was going to be getting mine as quickly as you guys. i have to wait for mine to ship over here to the US. still, my fault for emigrating i guess.

    i don't want to dredge up old stuff, but wow... some people don't realize how important DVD sales are to the ongoing success of a TV series. DVD sales have kept peep show going for years. it was obvious that everyone would be waiting to see how the DVD sales did before signing anything.

    even if there is interest already, in the interest of getting the best deal for Grant Naylor Productions, if it looks like the DVD sales are going to be good, best wait until that happens as it gives you a really good bargaining chip for budgets etc. even if the deal on the table was good, bad DVD sales could sabotage it.

    i was going to wait for a blu-ray release... but i couldn't do it. the box that broke the fourth wall (rather than that broke through it... it broke the entire wall and the building collapsed) was too much to resist... and could i honestly wait for that blu-ray announcement when the special features weren't likely to be in HD?

    when the commentaries are likely worth the price of entry and would be enjoyable without even looking at the tv?

    well, i already gave away the answer didn't i.
     
  20. jacksolomonsmith

    jacksolomonsmith First Technician

    Messages:
    196
    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2009
    Location:
    West Midlands, Halesowen.
    that was a great review!
     

Share This Page