RDXI Dwarf moments that make you morally uncomfortable

Discussion in 'RED DWARF XI / XII' started by HO HO HO I'M JMC, Jul 5, 2017.

  1. Saint Nikki

    Saint Nikki Console Officer

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    Woohoo I inspired a thread! I'm so cool.
     
  2. Decembers

    Decembers Deck Sergeant

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    Rimmer's letching at the naked Irene E is a bit weird in Entangled.
     
  3. CommanderKeen

    CommanderKeen Skutter

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    For all his posturing, Lister is a bit "women are good for sex (and that's about it)" just like Rimmer and Cat. Even in VII, his making a bath for Kochanski in his quarters is an attempt to get her into bed with him.
     
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  4. Decembers

    Decembers Deck Sergeant

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    Oh and for what it's worth I've always assumed the 'blackheads' remark was a reference to spotty teenagers, that play o words makes more sense, as @jmc2000 said.
     
  5. Seb

    Seb Captain Staff Member

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    Yeah, just to nip this one in the bud: the blackheads line is unquestionably a reference to spots. Firstly, it's written and said as all one word - "blackhead" - which is a type of spot. Secondly, "black head" isn't a vernacular I've ever seen or heard anyone use to refer to black people. Thirdly, while it does come off rather unfortunately when you apply the black people/fried chicken stereotype to it, it's important to note that that's a particularly American stereotype, not a British one, and I doubt the writers of the episode would even have been aware of the connotation.

    It is certainly, certainly not saying "fried chicken shops have a lot of black people working in them". It's clearly saying "the kitchens of fried chicken shops are an environment likely to induce spots in the faces of those working there".
     
  6. Wenceslas

    Wenceslas Deck Sergeant

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    That's another big error of Czech translation, where Lister surely says 'černá hlava' (black head), so it really sounds awful and racist. That's, why do joke didn't fit to Red Dwarf for me.
     
  7. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    To many to list but most it is between VIII to XI
     
  8. DivineVarod

    DivineVarod Catering Officer

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    I always feel Chris seemed uncomfortable during the scene. It also wasn't quite Rimmer as the man always seemed more petrified when close to women ...
    Her ending was pretty weird too. If she had to leave she could have chosen to return to her base. Would have been another " wrong" choice as she'd be alone, but less cruel.
     
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  9. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    Dougs solo dwarf tends to have moments of quite easy cliche comedy

    The virgin talk jokes in can of worms made me cringe abit because not only does it feel out of character for the cat to act how he did but it felt like something you would see in teen comedies.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2017
  10. Seb

    Seb Captain Staff Member

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    That's quite interesting that it was translated in that way - I can see why it would come off badly, in that case! Of course, I'm not sure how you'd otherwise successfully translate that joke - the only way to do it would be to rewrite it completely, I think...
     
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  11. Wenceslas

    Wenceslas Deck Sergeant

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    I'm not really sure too. Maybe give some reference to the chickens. But I think, that the translator didn't understand the meaning of the joke...
     
  12. Snow Cloud

    Snow Cloud Console Officer

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    I always just assumed it was in reference to the spotty skin of greasy fast food workers. I mean I cant imagine Lister being racist against the same race as himself.
     
  13. Callisto252

    Callisto252 Supply Officer

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    Taiwan Tony comes to mind, but I know that this has already been discussed to death on here. It did make me feel a bit uncomfortable at the time though, and it made my brother - who was watching with his Chinese girlfriend - extremely uncomfortable! I don't think it's actually offensive now I understand the subtle joke Doug was trying to make - maybe it didn't come across quite as expected.

    The Lolita stuff from the other thread - you know, I've never really considered how inappropriate that is before. Whenever I watch that episode I'm still watching as my teenage self, when I had no idea of what Lolita was really about, and just assumed they'd picked a random page of a famously naughty book. I'm still certain that's what happened, only there was definitely a different attitude to the whole older men/younger girls thing back then. Not that that's OK or anything, it was just a different time (that's thankfully now over).

    I doubt Rimmer would be allowed to fantasise about 'bronzed, naked, uninhibited teenage temptresses' in modern day Red Dwarf (at least, I hope not!!).
     
  14. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    There must be a Czech word for blackhead, but it might not work as a pun because it might just mean "pimple".
     
  15. HO HO HO I'M JMC

    HO HO HO I'M JMC Deck Sergeant

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    That's exactly what we're going for!
     
  16. HO HO HO I'M JMC

    HO HO HO I'M JMC Deck Sergeant

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    To be honest, I think this is precisely why most Dwarf fans root for Rimmer. He's unlikeable on paper but evokes our sympathy. A lot of that is down to Barrie's delivery, but also humanising stories like Better Than Life, Thanks For The Memory and Holoship.

    Even in The End, we feel for Rimmer when he's dead. Earlier, the scene with Todhunter shows him as a sad figure with little in his life. When he reaches for his notebook, and it dawns on him that he can't make his reports any more, I find that poignant, because he's lost even that.

    The childhood bullying plays into the fact that, despite his many flaws, we pity Rimmer. That's why moments like "Better dead than smeg" and The Beginning are probably such fan-pleasers.

    On a related note: I wouldn't call it a full-on "moral objection", but I'm always a bit sad at the end of Terrorform. Rimmer is on the verge of being genuinely touched by the group hug - but it turns out it was just a ruse to escape :-(
     
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  17. Mohinderence

    Mohinderence Third Technician

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    I'll preface this by saying that thankfully Dwarf holds up 'morally'. There are a lot of shows that I like that have icky moments but Red Dwarf is fairly controversy free, only the later series have a shady touch to them. The blackheads line has never even crossed my mind as being racist, it's obviously a skincare joke.

    So let me think...As mentioned, Taiwan Tony is regrettable. Arlene Rimmer's "cheap little tart" line I feel is making a point of holding the gender mirror up and by exposing the hypocrisy I think it is perfectly fine to laugh at.

    I could write a thesis about Demons & Angels and still be no closer to figuring out the intention of it all. Fanfic aside Lister and Rimmer have been portrayed as straight (mostly). Yet Low Rimmer makes it very clear that he's going to torture Lister and rape him afterwards. One way of reading into that is that somehow the best way of showing a character at their most depraved is to make them gay. All of the lows seem pretty horned up the whole time. But then maybe it isn't about gay or straight, at a human's basest level they just want ANYTHING. There is plenty of room for a pretty negative view of homosexuality. That said the highs themselves seem very close, and it wouldn't be a stretch to imagine too that they are all lovers but it isn't as explicit. Which begs the question that is there's an undercurrent of homosexuality in the lows AND the highs, maybe it's just hinting at the truth about the normal versions. In all honesty though I think it's just played campy for laughs. I would love to hear the thought process behind it someday.

    Everyone taking turns to insult the man with the face on his head in Officer Rimmer doesn't feel right. It's to be expected from Rimmer and Cat, but not Lister and Kryten.

    While funny, Rimmer is a bit too eager to ignore the fact that Kochanski doesn't want to have sex with him in Cassandra.

    To be honest though finding lots of examples would be nitpicky. Race isn't touched upon that much, and gender is a little bit of a non issue until Series VII.
     
  18. Mohinderence

    Mohinderence Third Technician

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    I think "better dead than smeg" is my favourite television moment of all time. Gives me chills every time to see Rimmer, the ultimate coward, prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice in the name of human decency.
     
  19. HO HO HO I'M JMC

    HO HO HO I'M JMC Deck Sergeant

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    Good thoughtful post, @Mohinderence!

    You're right about Low Rimmer. Growing up, I always thought it was hilarious, because of Barrie's delivery. But it does raise questions. I guess a lot has changed in the last twenty years, and, if Grant and Naylor were young writers doing that script today, I guess they might have given some extra thought to Low Rimmer's portrayal (like they did with Cat and the unmade "Mum" script).

    I'm not sure I quite agree that gender is a bit of a non-issue until VII. It certainly comes to the fore then, because Kochanski arrives as a main character, and gender stereotypes are mined for humour. That also starts to happen in the case of Kryten, who, according to his hardware specs, is gender-neutral - and devoted to Lister - meaning they can put the male actor in stereotypically female roles (like "jealous wife" and "doting mum") to get easy laughs.

    However, there ARE references to gender in the classic run - some of which might raise eyebrows, when viewed by liberal fans in the year 2017 - and an early episode devoted to it.
     
  20. Mohinderence

    Mohinderence Third Technician

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    Eyebrow raising maybe but nothing too bad I don't think. More a slight eyebrow twitch than a full on eyebrow raise from The Rock. That said I've seen them all so many times that I'd probably need an outsider with fresh eyes to react to it.
     
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