RDXI Dwarf moments that make you morally uncomfortable

Discussion in 'RED DWARF XI / XII' started by R.I.P. 2000, Jul 5, 2017.

  1. DivineVarod

    DivineVarod Catering Officer

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    My take on it was that the Lows were the parts of the Dwarfers they hated/tried to repress.

    As Rimmer is portrayed as being raised very strict and conservative it is easy to see why gay tendencies would be something he'd hate about himself (low).

    While releasing that side of him would make him less afraid to open up, and might lead to him releasing his creative and fun side leading to happiness love/being loved (high).

    That is how I always saw it.
     
  2. Mardroid

    Mardroid Console Officer

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    I don't think Dark Rimmer was meant to be gay so much as a raging deranged pervert with a massive sexual appetite who gets a kinky thrill out of demeaning anyone. If there were ladies in the crew I think he'd be interested in having his way with them as well, God forbid. He is certainly very camp, but so are some heterosexual men, and plenty of gay men are very masculine.

    I think it was just amusing to put Chris Barrie in fish-net stockings at the end of the day.
     
  3. R.I.P. 2000

    R.I.P. 2000 Deck Sergeant

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    If we assume that attitudes to LGBT haven't changed between now and Rimmer's time - which seems unlikely from an in-universe point of view, but sort of necessary, given the cultural perspective of the writers - you might have a point here. In Stoke Me a Clipper, Rimmer insults Ace for looking like "a reject from a Gay Pride disco."

    Of the main crew, he isn't alone in having late 20th Century attitudes to gayness. In Duct Soup, Lister refers to a short poker player with a visibly fake hairpiece as "Bent Bob", ignoring his other distinguishing features (Little Bob, Poker Bob, Baldy Bob, etc.). This isn't a criticism of the writing; the whole point of the dialogue, here, is to "show, not tell" Lister's attitude.

    In the same scene, he's visibly discomfitted by the idea of being gay in another reality, but also pleased; it makes him "feel all kind of superior and macho... not that I don't usually feel macho - because I do!" Kochanski teases him for this over-compensation by dubbing him "hetero-boy". The next week, in Blue, Lister has an extremely negative reaction to a dream where he wanted to kiss Rimmer and did so passionately.

    There's no reason to think Lister would be hostile to gays, opposed to gay rights or anything like that. But he's uncomfortable with the idea that he might be gay himself, and sees gayness as the defining feature of a gay friend. These are quite common present-day attitudes to gayness. Again, drawing them out is the whole point of the Duct Soup scene - unlike Low Rimmer or the kiss in Blue, which are visual gags, and rely on (rather than highlight) attitudes to gayness.

    Well, at a bare minimum, he's a bisexual cross-dressing sadist. We can only speculate about his attitude to women. The character as presented is certainly somewhere on the LGBT spectrum :-)

    To me in the Nineties it was certainly hilarious - but, like the writers, we're bringing a certain cultural perspective here. A female actor in traditional male clothes wouldn't be nearly as funny to most viewers. Equally, Chris and Craig snogging in Blue is one of the big laughs from Series VII; two women kissing in the same way would get a different reaction.

    It's not really possible to articulate why unless we explore, or simply take for granted, current attitudes to gender and gayness.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2017
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  4. Dismembers

    Dismembers Deck Sergeant

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    Great post Mr 2000 but I'm not sure about this bit. I get the attitudes to men kissing was 'ewwwww hahahaha' and to women it might be 'weheyyyy' but in this instance, had a series built up a relationship of love/hate between two women, in a comedy, then they had the 'ooooh Listy' moment I think it might have been the same reaction. The only vague similarities I can think of is if it was a passionate kiss between 'Saffy' (I think it was) and Patsy in Ab Fab, or Dorian and Sharon in Birds of a Feather.
     
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  5. R.I.P. 2000

    R.I.P. 2000 Deck Sergeant

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    Holoship features a moment that seems callous even by Rimmer's usual (sometimes quite
    odious) standards: he's prepared to cheat to pass the test, even when Hercule Platini has
    revealed their brutal "dead man's boots" policy (the observation that "your opponent's run-
    time would be terminated and their life force would be used to generate you"
    is completely
    overlooked by Rimmer in his eagerness to join the ship's crew - and, unlike other occasions,
    no one can argue that his own life was in danger here).

    Little quibble: in the quote, Hercule Platini uses "their" as a gender neutral singular pronoun
    in place of "he or she". Perhaps this is uncontroversial in the far future... but I do find it
    very jarring from the self-styled "hologrammatic cream of the space corps"! Surely he'd
    eschew singular "they", after getting his knuckles repeatedly rapped for it at some kind of
    space finishing school? Anyway, that's something morally uncomfortable: singular "they".
     
  6. Abe but more Halloween themed

    Abe but more Halloween themed Deck Sergeant

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    Given that a singular 'they' has been used in the English language for an extremely long time, I'd think the crew would be proud to be usi g traditional English.

    Why did you need to quote & link me here?
     
  7. R.I.P. 2000

    R.I.P. 2000 Deck Sergeant

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    It's less because I think it's "wrong" (it isn't) but more because I would expect Platini to be the kind of language snob who clings to the principle of "number agreement". He'd instinctively recast the sentence.
     
  8. Abe but more Halloween themed

    Abe but more Halloween themed Deck Sergeant

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    Hmm, a good point there. Which kind of English snob would he be? Who knows...
     
  9. R.I.P. 2000

    R.I.P. 2000 Deck Sergeant

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    The end of Me² doesn't bother me personally, but raises some moral questions.

    Firstly, Lister lets Rimmer believe he will be switched off indefinitely, in order to get the truth about Gazpacho Soup. Is this over-cruel? How would we feel if Rimmer made him think he was going into stasis forever, or dying... just to elicit a teary confession? It's not even crucial information. It's just idle curiosity on Lister's part.

    Secondly... Lister switches a Rimmer off to avoid further drama. In the context of the story, sparing "our Rimmer" feels like an act of mercy. But is it morally any better? We instinctively view them as "our Rimmer" and "bad new Rimmer", but they're identical. They have all the same memories and each is as "alive" as the other. Holly could support both indefinitely, and the ship is big enough that they could avoid each other - under threat of turning them both off, if necessary.

    From a sitcom point of view, it serves as an end-of-episode "reset button". In-universe... is it actually a cold-blooded holo-killing, with no real justification? It certainly seems more heartless than shrugging off Professor E's death at the end of Entangled, and worse than Rimmer trying to torpedo the bio-printed captain in Officer Rimmer.
     
  10. DivineVarod

    DivineVarod Catering Officer

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    I always felt Lister threatening to switch Rimmer off in general felt a bit close to "shut up or I'll kill ya", which is not "Lister like". Certainly compared to how Lister developed (if we ignore series 8).
     
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  11. DivineVarod

    DivineVarod Catering Officer

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    For Rimmer it might seem that way: that ship and that position means everything to him as it would mean becoming who his family wanted him to be. In an outtake he even exclaims the horrifically humiliating things he'd do to get on board. The consequences this would have for his other team member never even seem to register (to the point the rest of the posse don't even seem aware of this). The truth only sinks in when the captain tells him at the end.
     
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  12. Sammy Psycho

    Sammy Psycho Deck Sergeant

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    The reference is to spotty teenagers and not a racist comment, The idea that Kryten has burned up many of his heads, and the staff in a greasy fast food shop tend to be mostly teenagers that might be spotty (blackheads = acne).
    I have never though of this one as a racist joke.
     
  13. Dismembers

    Dismembers Deck Sergeant

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    Could do without Listy 'drink driving' in Thanks For The Memory. I know they are alone (more or less) in deep space but he still could have endangered himself and his crewmates.
     
  14. RainbowGazelle

    RainbowGazelle Second Technician

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    Me was offended.


    Really though, I can't actually think of anything that made me morally uncomfortable. There's stuff that feels out of character to me, yeah, but nothing morally bad.
     
  15. Chadwilliam

    Chadwilliam Skutter

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    One that is interesting for not causing me any moral discomfort is Rimmer pushing Katerina in front of a bus in Back to Earth on camera. Yes, he's the type of person who could "kill a man while he's on the job, it's only a pity he's still awake" but we never see him put this claim to the test. Sure, we keep hearing that he "wiped out the crew" of Red Dwarf, but I think we all know the second lowest ranking crew member should never have been put in a position where the lives of the entire ship rested in his hands, and yet to actually see with our own eyes that, yes, he will actually end someone's life without a second thought... well, wasn't actually all that chilling for some reason. Perhaps it's the way Rimmer actually takes the time to clarify with her that his existence means nothing to her as Katerina confirms that she does intend to wipe his disc, but for some reason... nothing. Doesn't bother me a bit.

    Rimmer looking down his shirt while in Kochanski's body in Season One (or was it Two?) and his "I've just seen something you haven't, squire" however...
     
  16. Ant the Dragon

    Ant the Dragon Flight Co-Ordinator

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    Racist? You've misunderstood the line and ironically brought out your own inner racism!!
     
  17. Zombie Smurf

    Zombie Smurf Supply Officer

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    The problem was in Czech translation, where the joke really sounds racist. Read the messages below to find the reason.
     
  18. Ant the Dragon

    Ant the Dragon Flight Co-Ordinator

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    I see. Xxxx
     
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  19. One Time

    One Time Third Technician

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    Cat making advances on his own mother. Who is a cripple. That's kinda over the line.
     
  20. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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