RDXI Ep 2 - SAMSARA - DISCUSSION THREAD

Discussion in 'RED DWARF XI / XII' started by Seb, Sep 23, 2016.

  1. Simonr1978

    Simonr1978 Deck Sergeant

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    Assuming a linear acceleration from the time off the accident, assuming that relatively speaking Red Dwarf went from a standing start (Or at least a comparatively slow speed), assuming that when Holly set Red Dwarf on her course out of the solar system that it went in a more or less straight line with little or no manouevering and assuming that Earth stayed more or less in the same place (Current knowledge is that the galaxies are moving away from the center of the universe, so it could have been moving away from Red Dwarf, in the same direction or somewhere in between). Assuming all of this and given that Red Dwarf broke the Light Barrier in Future Echoes at that stage it would have been somewhere around 1.5 million light years from the solar system.

    Space is huge, Red Dwarf is supposed to be around 5 miles long IIRC which is relatively tiny. Best guess is that once the JMC/Space Corps stopped receiving post pods and updates from Red Dwarf it was very quickly written off as "Missing, presumed lost" and no further effort was made to find her. Maybe someone even received one of Holly's distress/warning calls and just reasoned that the ship was at that stage unsalvagable or not worth the effort of trying to recover and she was written off, it certainly sounds like Red Dwarf was an older ship going from the likes of Howard Rimmers comments so the cost of finding, catching, recovering and decontaminating her would probably be prohibitive compared to her value. The longer Red Dwarf was travelling for, the further out she got and the less likely it would be that another vessel would happen across her.

    Just as an aside to this, quite some time back in reference to another post I pointed out that going by Lister's comments in Future Echoes Red Dwarf should still be on the out-bound portion of the turn Holly initiated in Series I and should still be travelling away from the solar system at a considerable velocity, not closing the gap in the slightest.

    It's a relatively easy one to fan-explain to be fair, either Holly managed to sling-shot Red Dwarf around a suitably large planet or star somewhere and sometime off screen, you can maybe assume that the Nanobots were able to stop Red Dwarf dead and/or nano-Dwarf had a much smaller turning circle. We also know that the crew have traveled through wormholes in Starbug in the past, so it doesn't seem impossible that they may have used one or more of them to jump Red Dwarf much closer to the solar system than she would have been if she was just under her own power. It's just that all of this happened off-screen in between episodes/series and you can mix and match any or all of these to suit your own thinking.
     
  2. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    The turn was completed sometime prior to Better Than Life.

    HOLLY: I knew you wouldn't get it. Post pod's arrived.
    RIMMER: What, the mail?
    HOLLY: It's been tracking us since we left Earth. Now we've turned round, it's caught up.
    LISTER: Do you mean it's taken three million years?
    HOLLY: Yeah, that's about average for second class post.

    Given Lister said in Future Echoes that it would take four thousand years to turn around, we have to assume that Lister and Cat went into stasis for at least four thousand years sometime after Future Echoes and before Better Than Life.
     
  3. Simonr1978

    Simonr1978 Deck Sergeant

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    Or like I said Holly could have found another way to turn the ship around in much shorter time. It's also perfectly possible that the 4,000 year figure was massively wrong and the ship was able to turn round in a much shorter amount of time so stasis wasn't necessary, we only have the word of Lister, Rimmer and Holly for it, considering that pedigree it's not unreasonable to suggest that a mistake or two may have been made.
     
  4. Abe but more Halloween themed

    Abe but more Halloween themed Deck Sergeant

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    Don't forget that the time dilation when they were at lightspeed would be insane, such that the turn would have gone by very quickly for them on board while a long time passed outside. As such, anything at sub-light speeds could have gone really far as RD turned around in a matter of hours.
     
  5. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    Thing is that they left in the escape pod and presumably the karma drive killed everyone and then they crashed... and somehow the dwarfers get there pretty quick considering that it would be mean the ship was 3 million years away from earth unless the dwarfers are much closer to earth than they think they are but i very much doubt that it was what doug was going for.
     
  6. R.I.P. 2000

    R.I.P. 2000 Deck Sergeant

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    Yes - that was exactly my logic in "guesstimating" 1.5 million light years. Red Dwarf's average speed would be half (ish) light speed, so three million years into deep space = 1.5 million light years from Earth (or, as you more accurately say, the Solar System).

    The "ish" comes from the fact that a) Red Dwarf wasn't quite stationary when it started accelerating away and b) it briefly exceeded (rather than merely equalling) light speed - but I think these differences are negligible compared to light speed. E.g., the true figure might be 1.50017 million light years.

    I'm not sure how Red Dwarf's speed would be measured except relative to an obvious reference point like the Solar System - which is both source and destination here - and the ship would inherit the velocity of the Solar System when it was built and set off. So I don't think the motion of the System itself is relevant?

    Analogy: if a cannon was flying through deep space and shot a human cannonball, the cannonball would measure her speed relative to the cannon. Say, 30 mph away from the cannon.

    If the cannon happened to be flying from the universal centre at a million miles per hour, the human cannonball would inherit that velocity. In other words, relative to the universal centre, she is travelling at 1,000,000 mph, and then (boom!) 1,000,030 mph - so the million cancels out.

    If the human cannonball managed to "turn around" and fly back towards the cannon at 30 mph, then, relative to the centre of the universe, she actually continues in the same direction - but at a reduced speed of 999,970 mph - which allows the cannon to start "catching up".

    Depending on our frame of reference, the human cannonball has either slowed slightly so the cannon can catch up again (that's relative to the universal centre), or done a u-turn and headed back towards the cannon (that's relative to the cannon).

    If we're describing her journey relative to the cannon, it makes more sense to ignore the universal centre and describe this as a u-turn - with speeds of 30 mph in both directions. All motion is relative in space!
     
  7. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    The karma drive killed everyone after the crash, because their skeletons wouldn't have stayed neatly in place after freefalling into the ocean. The Dwarfers would have been met with a jumble of broken bones all over.

    The Dwarfers have taken eleven series to get there.
     
  8. R.I.P. 2000

    R.I.P. 2000 Deck Sergeant

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    Or, bear in mind we (sort of!) worked out that - while Lister was in stasis - humankind spread at least a million light years into space. So maybe they didn't need to go especially far, to find the wreck of the Samsara.

    My logic is:

    - Red Dwarf's furthest point from Earth was about 1.5 million light years away (see above - straight line away from the Solar System for three million years, at an average velocity of half light speed)

    - In terms of the return journey, they wouldn't have made much progress by the time of Meltdown - so they were still about 1.5 million light years away from the Solar System (give or take) during that episode

    - In Meltdown, the nearest planet with breathable atmosphere was 200,000 light years from Starbug - i.e., 0.2 million light years - and it turned out humans had been there, and built an Earth history theme park

    - So we can estimate that the human settlement at Waxworld was at least 1.3 million light years from the Solar System, and maybe more (bear in mind there's no reason to assume it was directly between Starbug and Earth... it could have been 0.2 million light years off to the side, rather than 0.2 million light years closer to the Solar System).
     
  9. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    The impression I got from Samsara is that the Dwarfers have covered next to no ground back to Earth in all eleven series of travelling back there*. Which makes sense I suppose, given it took 3000000 years to get out there and they've only been going back for about 15 years. That assumes the speed they've been going back is the same speed they went out at. Holly went to light speed in Future Echoes, which caused future echoes, and we haven't seen any future echoes since so I suppose we have to assume they slowed down for some reason . . . presumably because the future echoes were so distracting (but then why not just go into stasis).

    The Nova 5 is the furthest extension of humanity we know about, and that appeared at the start of Series II. But for all we know, with the presumably faster speeds humans were capable of, maybe humans actually got out even further than Red Dwarf, and the fact that we saw no evidence of them during Series I was a fluke.

    *VI and VII don't count because they were a wild goose chase back to where they were at the end of V.
    We don't know if VIII counts - was Red Dwarf going back to Earth?
    We don't know if I counts, because we don't get confirmation of the turn until II.
     
  10. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    Ah, but what about the two pieces of Bombay Aloo from Nanarchy?

     
  11. R.I.P. 2000

    R.I.P. 2000 Deck Sergeant

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    Yes, agreed.

    Even with the crew in stasis, someone would have to fly the ship. As Holly says in Future Echoes, "I thought I could navigate at light speed, but I just can't wrap me head round it."

    Without the episode or script to hand this morning, I'm not 100% sure we can use the Nova 5 as a gauge of humanity's extent. Based on the establishing shot from Kryten, it might be that Nova 5 crashed into an object that was travelling away from the Solar System, and, like Red Dwarf, spent millions of years heading into deep space while Kryten was alone.

    This is less likely with Meltdown. Waxworld has blue sky and is described as a "planet", so we can presume it orbits a star - rather than flying in a straight line relative to the stars.

    Although the Waxworld sun is moving, I'd expect it to be fairly "still" relative to the Solar System - because both are orbiting the galactic centre in the same (ish) plane and direction of rotation - and three million years isn't long at all for a star (for instance: the sun takes more than 200 million years to perform one circuit of the galaxy).

    Whereas a small rocky object, like the one seen in the establishing shot from Kryten, could have flown directly away from the Solar System for millions of years - with Kryten looking after his corpses in the meantime. In that case, the position of the wreckage wouldn't be a good indication of humanity's extent in the galaxy.

    (Tbh, I think the Nova 5 is suggestive of humanity making it very far into deep space, as you say. But it's less "watertight" than Meltdown seems to be.)
     
  12. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    Holly also says "It's all right, I'm getting the hang of it now.".

    What about Justice World? The Dwarfers encounter that before Waxworld, meaning it's further from Earth.

    I make their encounters with human ships etc as follows:

    Nova 5
    Polymorph Genetic Waste Pod (drifted?)
    SS Penhalagen
    DNA Ship (drifted?)
    Justice World
    Waxworld
    Psi-moon
    Lanstrom's Research Station
    SSS Esperanto
    Psirens Spaceships
    Legion Station
    Gemini-12 (drifted)
    Leviathan
    SS Silverberg
    SS Manny Celeste
    SS Hermes
    ERRA Station
    Samsara
    Asclepius Station
    Nova 3
    Universe Station
     
  13. Slainmonkey

    Slainmonkey Deck Sergeant

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    You forgot the SS Trojan.
     
  14. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    The episode came to mind, but I got confused between the SS Trojan and the Columbus 3 which the Quantum Rod pulled across time-and-space. You're right, the SS Trojan was encountered in the normal way.
     
  15. R.I.P. 2000

    R.I.P. 2000 Deck Sergeant

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    You're quite right - all these are suggestive of humans getting very far from Earth, due to sheer volume if nothing else.

    But the problem with ships and space stations is, a derelict - or an asteroid with a derelict on it - could have been travelling through space in a straight line for millions of years. In that case, the place they find it isn't necessarily where humans left it. So any one of those cases isn't conclusive - but the sheer number of them in deep space is certainly very suggestive.

    Waxworld is a rare case because it's a planet which humans settled and built on. In Samsara, too, we know that the crew were alive when they reached the ocean world.

    Lanstrom's station is another good example which I'd forgotten. Her station is built on a planet or moon or somesuch - let's say "planetoid" - rather than floating freely in space. The sky is bright, so we know the planetoid is orbiting a star, rather than travelling in a straight line (in other words, it's not a "rogue planet"). As with Waxworld and Samsara, we can be confident that humans made it as far as that.

    I think the SS Penhalagen is in the "unclear" category (unless my memory fails me) because we don't know how far it travelled under its own inertia (or whether humans were on board) before it crashed on the planet with the decaying orbit.

    In a sense it's much of a muchness. I agree that, relative to Earth, the Dwarfers aren't much closer than they were at the end of episode one. So we can deduce that humanity got at least as far into space (or very nearly as far) as Red Dwarf did.
     
  16. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    Why does Cat call Lister "Alan Einstein" in Samsara when the very previous episode heavily referenced Albert Einstein.
     
  17. Abe but more Halloween themed

    Abe but more Halloween themed Deck Sergeant

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    1. Filming order
    2. He doesn't listen very carefully
    3. I don't think they referenced him much as 'Albert', just as 'Einstein'
    4. Most importantly, it's trying to prove how much Cat mixes things up in his head. No matter how recent.
     
  18. karnie

    karnie Supply Officer

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    OK, had to share this gem of an error:

    • In the episode, Rimmer calculated the odds of rolling a 2 and 1 three times in a row at 5,382 to 1.. it's really 5,832 to 1. This can be chalked up to misspoken dialog or a typo.
    • What can't be written off as a typo is Kryten's calculation of rolling a 2 and a 1 seven times in a row, which he claims is 62 million to 1, when it's really 612,220,032 to 1.
    • What also can't be a typo is the fact that Rimmer claims he rolled the combo seven times, when he only rolls six times, with a probability of 34,012,224 to 1. This could be due to cut scenes and editing issues.

    Continuity errors are one thing, but why wouldn't someone (COUGHscripteditorCOUGH) do a 20-second online check for things like this?
     
  19. Abe but more Halloween themed

    Abe but more Halloween themed Deck Sergeant

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    I counted that SO MANY TIMES and kept wondering when I had missed it.
     
  20. karnie

    karnie Supply Officer

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    Yeah, actually counted it more times than he actually rolled just to make sure I was right.
     

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