RDXI Ep 2 - SAMSARA - DISCUSSION THREAD

Discussion in 'RED DWARF XI / XII' started by Seb, Sep 23, 2016.

  1. barnaclebill

    barnaclebill Third Technician

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    I thought overall this was not a bad episode, it was much better on second viewing.

    I do agree with a lot of the criticism however. The shaky cam seemed very apparent in a couple of scenes and was a bit off-putting... it took me out of the episode slightly. Also I too would have preferred the Lister/Cat scene to be a Rimmer/Cat scene. I could imagine Rimmer would be much more likely to be calling for Kryten after Cats 'teaching'. It was still funny to me, but the jokes do seem noticeably stretched compared to earlier series. They should have shortened the R-Chemides scene slightly and had a more satisfying ending... or if not then a slow close up of Rimmers building rage as the realises Lister cheated Mineopoly would have surficed, as someone else also stated.

    But on the plus side I really liked the sets, performances and the story overall. I think Chris was much more in character and more like the old Rimmer. Some of his reactions like when he knows he has lost Mineopoly and the bunk conversation felt nostalgic to me and were well done. I like Kryten's comment about dirt and the tangerine line was funny. Good stuff.
     
  2. djmcbell

    djmcbell Supply Officer

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    So, Samsara, and after I wasn't struck with Twentica this was the perfect episode. In my top 3 episodes since series 6 (the other two being Tikka To Ride and Trojan) this had a great balance between plot and jokes that fit well into the half hour.

    I did like that they actually took the effort to directly reference Justice with the Karma Drive, but I'm not sure the flashbacks were necessary. They were well done, but probably unnecessary.

    Overall, quick thoughts but a solid 8/10 overall. Very well paced after the all-out action from Twentica. I do have to admit though that the ending was a tad abrupt, and it didn't explain why the crew died (I think - someone else has probably already answered that here) but there was a heck of a lot I liked about this episode.
     
  3. Pembers

    Pembers Deck Sergeant

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    I did initially agree about the Lister/Cat thing going too long but I guess in a sense that's what made it so annoying for Lister, we as a viewer for shouting for Kryten to come and end it with him.
     
  4. BetterAnythingThanThatToupee

    BetterAnythingThanThatToupee Third Technician

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    Re-watching now. Despite what I said RE the bunkroom scenes above, I still think that they're the BEST of those scenes we've had in a very long time. They could easily fit into series II-VI for me. The visual style, the sets, the writing, and most importantly the ACTING.

    One thing that is quite odd though: why go to the trouble of fitting Chris with a full lace wig if they're going to give him the same amount of temple recession that he has in real life? The hair IS getting better, but I'd love to see much less recession. I don't know if anyone's noticed, but Rimmer looks much more like RIMMER when he's wearing a hat in the credits.
     
  5. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    I am assuming the idea was to not make it look to obvious chris is wearing a wig
     
  6. BetterAnythingThanThatToupee

    BetterAnythingThanThatToupee Third Technician

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    Entirely possible, but who would really care if an actor was wearing a hairpiece for a role? Hair pieces ('hair systems' as they're called these days), are virtually undetectable, even when compared directly with the real thing (I am aware of the irony in my user name and THAT photo). Not a big deal -- just some minor niggle that bothers me every now and then.

    Having re-watched Samsara in full I've got to say that it gets even BETTER. I already preferred this one over Twentica, but even the stuff I was less than keen on (the Lister/Cat exchanges) work way better on a second viewing (after you're in on the Karma device reveal). I didn't even mind the stumbling in the dark section as much.
     
  7. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    I was wondering if anyone could clear up a plot point for me. I didn't understand why the adulterous couple bothered to escape the ship, given they were now free to indulge in their affair. Why escape if all they're going to do is go into stasis in a local orbit? And why did they come out of stasis after three million years just as Red Dwarf came past, did Red Dwarf trigger an alarm that woke them up? She seemed very alert, not like she'd just come out of stasis. I also don't understand why she warned them since she knew she'd be punished for doing so. Did she just forget? Did she think she was out of the field? At first I thought her warning was a recording, but after a few watches it comes across as live.

    Also, I enjoyed seeing Rimmer's Battleplan Timetable from "The Beginning" next to his bed. I like seeing some continuity creeping in, rather than feeling like every episode goes into a black hole and doesn't matter. But what was Rimmer wearing? Looked like some sort of holo-kimono.
     
  8. Underdunn

    Underdunn First Technician

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    They escaped the ship because their plan, which was to just adjust the karma settings for one night, had gone horribly wrong. The machine was not allowing them to change it back (because that would have been a moral thing to do) and had by that stage got so out of control that other crew members were literally stabbing and stangling each other in order to survive. If they'd stayed they would have been killed.

    Yes I think their escape pod did indeed wake up them up when another ship came into orbit, three million years later. Huh! Now I think about it I suppose Lister really hadn't been the last human alive all this time afterall. Though is now!

    Lord knows why she tried to warn them. I suppose it didn't occur to her the effects would continue now she was off the ship.
     
  9. Ant E

    Ant E Flight Co-Ordinator

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    Honestly, some of the criticisms people are making... :roll:
     
  10. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    I thought the karma drive still let you do whatever you wanted, it just punished or rewarded you afterwards.

    If they stayed for some time and watched the ship descended into orgies and murder and then escaped then it makes sense; I thought they'd escaped early on.

    The fact that she warned them means she thought the karma drive was still operational, which means she wouldn't have warned them. Unless she warned them because it was right even though she knew it meant her punishment/death. I don't know why it killed the man too, he wasn't on the screen. But maybe he was still in on it somehow.
     
  11. Underdunn

    Underdunn First Technician

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    No, no, we saw it in the opening scene - the escape pod ejected just moments before the crew itself were killed and it crashed into the ocean. By that point the murders and orgies were already happening so presumably our lovers had been trapped in the chaos themselves, assuming they couldn't escape because the karma drive would punish them - then finally working out that taking the escape pod would be okay because 'technically' that was an immoral action, since it involved leaving everyone else to die.

    I'd go with 'she was no longer on the ship so assumed it couldn't reach her.'
     
  12. jmc2000

    jmc2000 Deck Sergeant

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    They were surrounded by people having orgies and murdering each other - of course they wanted to escape! They were portrayed as normal people, not thrill-seeking hedonists.

    Take the karma drive out of the equation. You're in a seedy, violent location with your lover. Would you just hang around in bed together? Or take an opportunity to get out of there?

    Well, Lister seemed pretty alert when he came out of stasis in The End. He was surprised to learn that anything had happened to him.

    Psirens was a different kettle of fish, when he emerged from "deep sleep". Presumably, there are different technologies with different effects. I can't remember whether the escape pod had "stasis" or "deep sleep" - but, even so, there's no reason why either couldn't have improved by the time Samsara was built.

    Regarding one of your other points, the Karma Drive is a bit unpredictable. On another day, it might have given her a slipped disc as punishment, or made her fall over. I guess she took a gamble and lost.

    My main bugbear is... what's the point of having a Karma Drive if you don't let the crew know from the start? The lovers thought they were just having bad luck until they were summoned by the captain. Surely the whole point is that you know it's there and act accordingly? It should encourage good deeds and deter bad ones. If you don't know it's there from the start, it does neither.
     
  13. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    I just watched it for the second time.Some more thoughts.

    It was a little better with the benefit of hindsight explaining why all the seemingly random things were happening to the crew. However, I can't help thinking that the show would have done better to reveal this to the viewer earlier and then let them enjoy watching the Dwarfers bumble about figuring it out. It wasn't that much of an interesting reveal to make a mystery out of.

    I also think there was a better way to tie in the bunk scene to the crews escape. Remember that Rimmer had lost a bet and been forbidden to moan or rebuke Lister in any way. Lister giving Rimmer permission to really go to town on him (in order to save the crew) probably would have been a lot funnier than Kryten (uncharacteristically) physically assaulting him and would actually have been a nice subversion of the way that the crew escaped Terrorform's planetoid by having to be nice to Rimmer.

    Lister hoping to find a 'Faster than light drive' was an interesting nod towards Out of Time.

    Interesting that Rimmer is now finding other things to blame his misfortune on "alien curses" etc, since he can no longer blame his genetics.

    Was it me or was there an obvious cut in the 'Archimedes' scene that would have made it even more drawn out and painful. The way Cat suddenly repeats "I got it the guy like me beginning with R" when he's only just said a very similar line makes me feel like something was taken out...a shame that more wasn't. I'm starting to worry about the 'Cat episode' because cat is at his best cutting sharp one liners, not having extended dialogue.

    Overall this episode made a lot more sense on second viewing. I retract my previous use of the word "dross" but I still didn't laugh out loud once and while it might have it in as one of the better ones, this episode still had uncomfortable series VII vibes to me.
     
  14. Ant E

    Ant E Flight Co-Ordinator

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    There's many episodes pre series 7 that I didn't laugh out loud for.

    I think red dwarf is more about whacky mad cap stories that are entertaining than being continuously funny.


    Take back to reality.. Hardly laugh out loud every second is it? In fact, minus the Dwane Dibley stuff it's more of a great, entertaining, crazy story than anything else!
     
  15. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    I often wonder whether they are actually nods or just forgotten coincidences

    Wasn't it his parents he blamed and not his genetics? and technically with Dougs new dad theory he probably has more reason to blame his genetics then he did before ;p
     
  16. Bluey

    Bluey Science Officer

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    Currently Samsara is sitting at about halfway on my list of episodes ranked from favourite to least favourite. That still makes it a good episode but only an average one next to all the others. Twentica on the other hand has probably broken into my top ten.
     
  17. jmc2000

    jmc2000 Deck Sergeant

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    What an apt combination of username and quote, lol :-)
     
  18. Goit_84

    Goit_84 First Technician

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    Is it just me or did this episode just abruptly end? The credits always used to appear at the right time on Red Dwarf but they're appearing out of the blue of Series XII.
     
  19. Goit_84

    Goit_84 First Technician

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    Is it just me or did this episode just abruptly end? The credits always used to appear at the right time on Red Dwarf but they're appearing out of the blue of Series XI.
     
  20. Oddheads

    Oddheads Second Technician

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    The general idea and writing of the ending is decent but it's poorly executed, leading to it just being kind of "-oh, that was the end?"
    Surely Rimmer should have been giving the line about Lister's hidden Mineopoly cards?
     

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