RDXI Ep 3 - GIVE AND TAKE - DISCUSSION THREAD

Discussion in 'RED DWARF XI / XII' started by Seb, Sep 29, 2016.

  1. Paul Taylor

    Paul Taylor Console Officer

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    Finally got round to seeing this episode after a particularly long day at work. I'm so pleasantly surprised. I'd worried that Samsara would prove to be the pinacle of the series, and would have been fine with that. But each episode this series has improved on the last.

    The 'Captain Bollocks' and 'rimshot' gags didn't feel right for Dwarf, yet I still enjoyed them. The marvelously creepy villain, an entity which was both original yet a scary parody of movie villains, something at which Dwarf excels, was criminally underused. And I fear the kidneys paradox is a genuine plot hole. Kryten at least should have realised that Lister could not have his kidneys removed if they removed them in the past. The fact no attempt was made to deal with this issue in the episode makes me question, almost, whether Doug noticed the inconsistency, though that would seem too rudimentary a mistake for Doug.

    But I loved the episode more than the previous two, and I look forward to another watch.
     
  2. Bluey

    Bluey Science Officer

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    An interesting story structure here with each third distinct from the others, though I'm going to have to have another watch of the episode to completely understand all that time travel stuff in the final third. I also found this the funniest episode of the season so far - even on second viewing some bits still raised a laugh - though overall Twentica is still my season favourite by quite a distance.

    Various thoughts:

    • Asclepius was great - he must be one of the scariest antagonists the show's ever featured. A big shame we didn't see more of him.
    • Cat's been given much more to do this season, and Danny's risen to the challenge brilliantly. His was probably the stand out performance of the episode.
    • Kryten continues to be a vast improvement on recent seasons, though I could have done without the 'Captain Bollocks' talk, which seemed a bit too like season 10's 'using swearing for an easy laugh' stuff.
    • I loved the ending. Some might complain about its abruptness (don't they always?) but it was perfect.
    • Will the snack dispensing machine make another appearance, or will he vanish never to be spoken of again? I'm going for the latter.

    Funniest line:

    Kryten: "You have a problem with your kidneys, sir."
    Lister: "What kind of problem?"
    Kryten: "You don't have any."

    Overall: An unusual episode bursting full of great ideas and some good comedy but it was still only a slightly above average episode in the history of Dwarf.

    Rating: 6.5/10
     
  3. Angelic_Storm

    Angelic_Storm Catering Officer

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    The biggest issue with the "Captain Bollocks" stuff is it is so out of character for Kryten. It would have even been a bit cheap and nasty coming from Cat or Lister, but it's more jarring because Kryten said it. But the "And you are?" line which preceded it was just wonderful. I also loved the "I just asked you to introduce me, there was no need to big me up!" line, whuch was classic Kryten. :-)
     
  4. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    My favourite episode of XI so far, but not without its niggles.

    The Captain Bollocks part was awkward. We've never heard Kryten call Rimmer Captain Bollocks. It would have been funnier if the file had been "Smeghead", a la Camille. The part where Kryten apologises profusely and keeps saying "Captain Bollocks" was tedious, especially since Kryten has in the past been quite open about his disdain for Rimmer. But I really liked the "and you are?" line, that really worked. Should have left it there. I was a bit confused about Kryten removing the file to free memory, but still having it in Trash taking up memory. I also wish there was some way that Kryten removing his files ended up being relevant to the plot, a la Thanks for the Memory where they delete the logs to cover up what they've done.

    Really enjoyed Snacky the vending machine and hope he becomes a regular character. He'll be in good hands, given Rimmer and Lister are vending machine repairmen! Loved the reveal where it says SNACKY on the back, didn't see it coming. Although I noticed a mistake where Snacky comes in the medi-bay door sideways and his SNACKY side is showing, so they would have seen it.

    The kidneys paradox doesn't quite work because the droid says "this must be the donor", and we also see him stitching Lister up. So do we infer that he opened Lister up, found him to have no kidneys, then stiched him back up, and the kidneys in the jar were a coincidence? The only reason Lister's kidneys were gone is because their future-selves stole them, but the only reason their future selves stole them is because they were gone. Their future selves stole them because their future selves stole them because their future selves stole them because their future selves stole them because their future selves stole them . . . But that's what Red Dwarf does, and I suppose it's no more of a plot hole than much of the other time-travel paradoxes, like Lister being his own dad. I think Doug set up this paradox with the bloke being stabbed by his future self trying to stop him being stabbed, or whatever that was.

    I thought the part where they were working out how to "hack stasis" to go back in time was tortured, because Red Dwarf have about half a dozen different time-machines they could have used.

    It annoyed me when Snacky said he once served Rimmer's crewmate, Flight Coordinator Ronald Littlewood. Because I assumed that was going somewhere, but it went nowhere! What was the point of it? Did Littlewood serve aboard Red Dwarf and then leave? Or did Rimmer serve on another ship before Red Dwarf? Or had Snacky been aboard Red Dwarf three million years ago?
     
  5. Cloud

    Cloud Console Officer

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    I had completely forgot about Snacky saying he worked with someone who knew Rimmer. That really did go nowhere. I wonder if there is a deleted scene that dealt with it
     
  6. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    I absolutely adored this episode from start to finish.

    A pitch perfect performances from Chris Barrie who finally recaptured the Rimmer of old without acting like he was a pantomime version of himself. In fact everyone absolutely nailed their characters helped by sharp writing that felt true to the voices of the character instead of Doug (Hello Samsara, I'm talking about you). Rimmer's therapy session and general performance was so good that I'm now excited instead of quietly worrying about the "Officer Rimmer" episode.

    A Wonderfully creepy series 5-ish villain, ship based dialogue that felt fresh, relevent and authentic instead of awkward "let's have a bunk scene" stuff.

    It was topped off by the wonderful Heinlein-esque time loop that revealed the true brilliance of what had felt like merely the usual Seris X (except funny) "life aboard ship" opening scene.

    Jokes that consistently hit the nail on the head (Yes I loved "Captain Bollocks" and Kryten's faux pa and digging himself into a worse state was very atypical) with no groaners whatsover. I haven't laughed this much or felt so at home with a Red Dwarf since the end of Series VI.

    I actually think that one of the reasons this was moved from the shooting order is that Doug realised just how good it was and that both Twentica (which I enjoyed) and Samsara (which I didn't) just wouldn't live up to it.

    The tease of the long requested Stasis Leak continuity had my heart racing...even if it didn't go in that direction.

    This easily knocks off 'The Beginning' as the best of the Dave era and, I must be honest I found it to be so consistently good that I'd put it up there as worth of joining the untouchable Series 1-6.

    It makes me question just how the same man could have written this and Pete Part 2!

    Wonderful stuff. Bravo Doug and all concerned. You knocked it out of the park.
     
  7. jmc2000

    jmc2000 Deck Sergeant

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    Why is "rimshot" controversial? It's just a drum hit.

    It's also used colloquially to mean the "ba-dum TSH!" thing you do after a joke - so maybe that's why it ends the comic sequence?
     
  8. bilbobagenz

    bilbobagenz Third Technician

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    First Seb, why delete the sticky for epsode 1 discussion?

    Anyway great episode, kudos to the new style, the lighting, Special effects, sets, even the music all stepped up a notch, Great to see the Scutters back, not sure why Kryten with his xray vision could see the number on the back of Snacky when we couldn't,
    I was not expecting this episode to be as good as last week but it moved up to one of the best.
    Is there going to be something happen between Snacky and Rimmer as he seemed to know sombody who knew rimmer, I can smell something brewing there,
    I totally agree that if the ending had them realise it was them that stoll the kidneys in the first pace that it would have been better, otherwise in my top 10 of epsode.

    I have high hopes for the next 3 episodes and would like to pass on to all involved well done.
     
  9. Angelic_Storm

    Angelic_Storm Catering Officer

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    Well, Snacky is now aboard Red Dwarf, so feasibly he could be featured in future episodes. He was a good character, and it would be good to see him return to further explain that.
     
  10. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    The "Captain Bollocks" stuff probably should have had a trim down also. i do feel like i spend alot of time saying certain gags should be trimmed down but it does feel like they ride some jokes to long to see how long the laughs for it can last but often it becomes less funny as it goes along for those at home watching.

    Its like the episode holoship which has some of the best quick fire gags of the series, most to all of them are joke, laugh and then move on.

    While i could picture the "people i met" line from holoship being alot longer if it was in this new series where rimmer would add to it and add to it.
     
  11. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    At this point id be hppy if doug toned down the anal-retentive-ness just abit since Rimmer has become obsessed wih his rank abit to much where he always has to be in charge and boss everything around and while Rimmer had abit of that in the early days of 1-6 he kinda acted abit more like an equal who just had his own strong annoying interests and personality while if say bodyswap was written today by doug i could see Rimmer attempting to order lister to swap bodies with him because he is the senior officer and lister should do what he says and its abit of a cheap gag at this point
     
  12. Underdunn

    Underdunn First Technician

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    I hope that gets brought up in a later episode, because it's a bit of a clanger if there was actually a deleted scene or deleted line about it in "Give or Take" - since the obvious thing to do if you were cutting that out is to also cut out the single line set up.

    Speaking of which... Whilst I am REALLY enjoying this series I do have to say it has some of the worst editing and stitching I've seen in any show for a long time. There are so many moments in each episode where you can sense the cuts and they keep niggling me. For me two big ones in this episode. The first being when rimmer and kryten first find Lister being stitched up by the droid. Them seeing it, then them silently lining up shooting at it just felt odd... some very brief exchange between rimmer and kryten appeared to be missing there. The next one was snackys "what would you do if people thought you were a medical genius and you weren't" line that was immediately followed by Rimmers, "So what do you do?" ...again you can smell the missing exchange of dialogue between those lines there.

    All shows edit down for length and drop lines here and there, I can't quite put my finger on why this series of red dwarf is coming across so less subtle with the way they're doing it though.

    Oh maybe it's just me.
     
  13. Angelic_Storm

    Angelic_Storm Catering Officer

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    My only explanation for the plothole regarding Lister's kidneys, is what we see in the episode was not the original timeline for that event taking place. In the original timeline's series of events, Lister's kidneys were indeed removed by Asclepius and not himself. In the altered timeline we see in the episode, the kidneys we see in the jar are not Lister's. Asclepius, on discovery that Lister has no kidneys, is preparing to give him kidneys incompatible with his system. The incident makes more sense when you look at it from the angle that the sequence of events we see is from an altered timeline (when Lister removed his own kidneys). And not from the original timeline when his kidneys were removed by Asclepius.
     
  14. Slainmonkey

    Slainmonkey Deck Sergeant

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    This episode was kinda what series X should have been like.
     
  15. Chris D

    Chris D Engineer

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    Having just watched it again for a third(!) time, I have drawn the same conclusion. I refuse to believe this plot hole would have been accidental, so this time paradox-y thing seems to be a reasonable explanation.

    I have to echo some of the comments above regarding Rimmer's superiority. He's constantly telling people he's acting blah blah senior officer. Go back a few series and he seemed to be somewhat proud of introducing himself merely as "Second Technician Arnold J Rimmer". There was a sort of charm in his inflated self importance in a role that's anything but vs. an acting officer role that is essentially made up.
     
  16. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    I'm normally the biggest critic of Doug's tendency to over-egg a joke with a redundant second or third line (as seen most frequently in series 8 ) but I have to disagree about 'Captain Bollocks'.

    I was worried about the "and you are" joke as it was presented in the trailer. It seemed a throwaway line that should have had greater consequences but seemed destined to be just dismissed. the fact that Rimmer acted concerned and ordered Kryten to reintall the file took the scene back into reality and less of a cartoon. The idea that Kryten had deleted the file because of it's idiotic name, inadvertently wiping Rimmer is also funny. I wouldn't be surprised if Lister had changed the filename at some point as a joke. There are many humorous explanations for it. The term 'Bollocks' was also hilarious to me because of it's freshness in a show that could have just pulled out a lame and repetitive 'Smeghead' insult.

    Is 'Bollocks' particularly smart as an insult? No, but the way Kryten expresses was wonderful for me. His increasing grief seemed very much a callback to the time he inadvertently called Rimmer's mother a 'silly old trout' and then kept repeating it in his apology, only making it worse (and funnier). I don't recall anyone criticising that particular joke and it was an almost identical type of exchange.
     
  17. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    It was a similar joke to the one in polymorph but i think it was kinda the way the joke was executed more than anything.
     
  18. Pembers

    Pembers Deck Sergeant

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    I think snacky saying he once served someone Rimmer knew was to set up that he was about to reveal he's a snack dispenser but then there was that ship quake or whatever it was and they got distracted.
     
  19. magnetiser

    magnetiser Third Technician

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    While I loved Twentica for its witty science jokes ("How dense do you think I am?" being the favourite) I absolutely adored Give & Take for its overall freshness yet sumptuous splattering of nostalgia.

    Asclepius
    I definitely would've liked to have seen more of Asclepius, but, as many have pointed out, villains have been used several times in Dwarf to set up a plot, only to quickly disappear; and that's fine; the balance between sci-fi and comedy was (and continues to be) Red Dwarf's strength.

    Snacky
    Okay, Snacky was a little silly but I actually liked him. And I like the fact that he (presumably) survives at the end.

    Though, if I were to nitpick... his credentials were revealed too early to the audience. Would it not have been better to reveal his true identity after his psychotherapy session with Rimmer - after his 'bell' sounds would have been perfect, no?

    I don't think it would've taken away from the comedy of that scene because, for me, Chris Barrie's performance completely sold it.

    Rimmer's Psychotherapy Session
    Chris Barrie was spectacular here, particularly given this was the first recording of the series. I'm assuming that this scene was played in as a VT on the night? It would've been a delight for him to share this live with the audience. I hope there are oodles of deleted snippets here to enjoy on the blu-ray release.

    I don't think re-ordering the episodes makes this any less impactful; core fans recall the events of the Beginning, so having them in episode three versus episode one doesn’t particular do the reference any disservice.

    Timey-Wimey
    Anything timey-wimey (particularly when it actually all makes sense) goes right up my flagpole. Huge kudos to Doug for making this work.

    I have no issue with bootstrap paradoxes...

    I always take Chloe Annett's Crime Traveller for guidance here. I know, I know(!) But the rules Anthony Horowitz wove into that series just really click with me – see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_Traveller#Rules_of_time_travel.

    In this case, rule 3, for me, is perfectly rational.

    Put simply: events in time are fixed and always happened, regardless of how you move through time and experience them; everything that has happened or will happen has already been determined (though, I stress, not in a ‘fate’ kind of way – freewill still exists). The Dwarfers were always the ones to steal Lister's kidney; it doesn't matter that they only decided to do this as a result of the kidney being stolen because every event in time has already been laid down - like on a big long piece of tape. Similar to the 'hold the door' events in Game of Thrones.

    Capiche? Have I made something complicated sound... really, really complicated? Were you with me all the way up to 'simply'? ;-)

    Oh, forget it(!) Moving on...

    Additional 001:
    - Soundtrack
    Howard Goodall's music cues during the escape and final 'going back in time' scenes feel more epic, fun and fresh than ever before. Several tweets indicate that others don't, but I think it's awesome that he has the opportunity to try new things – even if it did delve into Doctor Who territory (that's not a bad thing).

    - Split Screen
    I've always found split screen in Red Dwarf incredible. This episode is no exception. I completely failed to notice it upon 1st viewing - it was just so wonderfully seamless.

    - M People Reference...?
    Anyone else think there was an M People joke in there somewhere each time Rimmer said 'find the hero inside myself'?
    "Search for the secrets you hide, Snacky!" Or is that just a step too far?

    - Final Scene
    Rimmer's scream should have bled into the credits more. There is something slightly jarring at the end, no? I think a more gradual fade (and echo) would have helped here (maybe that's just me?).

    - Captain Bollocks
    "Captain Bollocks"... felt a bit too mean (while 'Silly Old Trout' is similar, compare Kryten in 'Give & Take' to 'Out of Time' when he discovers he's made a mistake about Lister being a droid - much more subtle and apologetic).
     
  20. Ant E

    Ant E Flight Co-Ordinator

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    A good review. Agree with all but your score. I think it's a healthy 8

    Also the end was abrupt but made sense. Take, for example, the ending to Justice and it makes a lot more sense and was funnier!!!
     

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