RDXI EP 6 - CAN OF WORMS - DISCUSSION THREAD

Discussion in 'RED DWARF XI / XII' started by Seb, Oct 21, 2016.

  1. jmc2000

    jmc2000 Deck Sergeant

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    LOL!

    Listen again - it's homes. He's claiming to have a second life the others know nothing about. It's clearer the first time he says it:

    The two women in bed at the end are a red herring.

    I would have been disappointed by "hoes". I'm not sure why we still have such a casual attitude to gender-specific pejoratives, when we've (quite rightly!) stopped being tolerant of race-specific ones.
     
  2. Paul Taylor

    Paul Taylor Console Officer

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    I reckon, 'Don't you guys know cats always have two hoes?' would have been a pretty good joke in itself.
     
  3. Underdunn

    Underdunn First Technician

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    And I reckon, 'Don't you guys know backs always have two hoses?' would have been a spirited defence of why he didn't find anything suspect about his bonkathon.
     
  4. Pembers

    Pembers Deck Sergeant

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    What a weird episode. :shock:

    I can't even decide if I liked it or not, I think I did.

    They suddenly have this personality changing machine for some reason, bit weird but ok.

    They are for some reason in Starbug and using Series VI style 'shifts' at the helm. Bit weird but ok.

    They happen upon a ship, see it has 2 lifeforms, and that one is a mercenoid and one a prisoner (species unknown) ok, somewhere in here there is a discussion about a GELF tribe and Cat being a virgin. I assume Krytes sealed the deal with Camille then? Or maybe its because he doesn't have blood.

    They kill the mercenoid by getting it to pick up a Dictaphone, not sure what happened there, did I miss it? Bit weird but ok.

    They find the prisoner is a cat lady and bring her back to the ship, fine, good. No attempt to find out who she is or how she got there, as far as we know.

    They now discover that its a polymorph and rather than sucking out emotions it wants to inseminate the Cat with its eggs. REALLY weird.

    It does so and we get a fairly graphic description of the event from Cat. Weird. We see the corpse of the polymorph. Bit weird.

    Now Cat has 8 polymorphs inside him, they go to operate but the polymorphs prevent them doing so, fine.

    Next is the birthing scene where several random household objects are deposited by Cat, this was really weird.

    The morphlings or whatever they were called now turn into cute pets. No attempt to drain any emotions. Bit weird.

    Cat then naffs off with them, ok get that, we then have Lister use the personality changing machine (handy they had that) to drain his emotions. Makes perfect sense. We then find out that Cat has had all his emotions drained.

    The whole point of making Lister an emotionless assassin is then completely negated by Rimmer and Kryten being with him. He then shoots and kills the first thing he sees. The Polymorph exploding into green gunk was kind of weird.

    We then get an interesting Mexican stand off between the boys and the 6 remaining PM's. Cat then appears and seems to be perfectly fine. Everyone gets in the lift and when it opens Cat is there again but now he's the emotionless assassin and obliterates all his 'kids'. Not sure how he got there or what changed in his mentality in those few minutes. That was weird.

    The last scene was ok, don't mind them ending on a light-hearted note.

    I definitely need to watch this again as I think I missed a few things. :-)
     
  5. Whisper

    Whisper First Technician

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    Oh that could have been plot convincing.

    "How did you know not to shoot us?"
    "Simple. I just shot the versions of you that smelt GOOD!"
     
  6. Freeborn

    Freeborn Flight Co-Ordinator

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    Ah I enjoyed that more than words can express. But I'll try nonetheless. I absolutely smegging loved the weird wackiness of this near-perfect episode. And the fact that Doug had me expecting one thing and then swept the rug out from under my feet and took me hurtling off into a completely different direction.

    As a big fan of Polymorph and Emohawk I'm so happy that we we've finally got a well deserved third Polymorph ep, and with a completely new twist to boot! I particularly like the vampire GELF concept. And once again there was no rehashing of ideas, just more lovely in-universe continuity and occasional call backs taken off in unexpected directions. I enjoyed everything Doug did with Cat here and Danny's performance was superb. The birthing scene was pretty weird but somehow managed to wok and made me laugh muchly at the absurdity of it all.

    I lost count of how many times I laughed out loud during this one. The stand-off scene look and was played out brilliantly. And I enjoyed the many funny little moments throughout such as the bit where it initially just looked like a generic call back to a bit from Bodyswap but then turned out that Lister was just in full-on slobby mode pulling a similar face to that he made in Bodyswap - that took me by surprise and had me laughing so much I missed some of the following lines. I'm laughing at it even now as I type this.

    Similarly, I got a good laugh from Kryten seemingly speaking GELF dialect only for it to then be revealed that he'd sat on a screwdriver. I love all that stuff and it was done so well here. Also, the little top hat wearing hedgehog in the shopping trolley was a nice little touch of comedic cuteness. Doug must've been in full-on funny mode when writing this one. It wouldn't surprise me if he was on the marijuana Gin. Only smoking - I mean, joking! :lol:

    It was a nice surprise to see the mid-section of Starbug and interesting to see it looking so different to those we've seen before. And I liked that the tech they used in this ep for Lister's emotional surgery was salvaged from the medical space station they visited in 'Give and Take'.

    I though the actress playing the female Cat/Polymorph did a reasonably good job. Although some of the mannerisms and the funny walk may have been a tad OTT, but then it's not an easy role to play to a bunch of fans who grew up loving Cat so much, we were always gonna be watching her or any other actress to play such a character with somewhat of a critical eye, I think. But yeah, I thought she did okay. I say all this with a degree of caution because I'm aware that it's one of those performances which could potentially either grow on me or possibly even diminish in my perception somewhat (and I've only watched it once so far). We shall see. Either way I enjoyed seeing our Cat interacting with her and she certainly served that particular purpose well.

    I liked the ending and the way Doug initially had me thinking "Whaaat!?", before revealing it to be a dream. I love being fooled/misdirected like that. It was nice to see Cat's proper quarters too, or at least his proper dream quarters. I do hope they still have the dream recorder as I wouldn't mind seeing a little more of those lovely ladies playing the dream cats. Erm, yeah, make of that what you will.

    One thing that did bug me a bit (but really shouldn't) was someone in the audience groaning when the Polymorph was mentioned. Ugh. Just...ugh. It wasn't one of you moany lot, was it? ;-) *hides*

    Overall, this series, for me, has been a major success. I've no idea what perfection would look like (different for each of us I imagine since it's fundamentally subjective) but there's no doubt in my mind that this series is every bit as good as "classics" like series V and VI (non of which are quite as flawless as some hardcore fans make out imo).

    I think a big congratulations to Doug et al are in order here. Series X was a major step in the right direction, whereas XI has gone forth and pretty much blown it out of the galaxy by brimming over with a surprisingly high level of awesomeness. I suspect this will be a series I'll find myself returning to often. Doug has really excelled himself here. :-D

    As for Rob Grant, I don't want him back at this point. And I don't mean that in a nasty, side-taking way, it's just that a) I genuinely doubt the partnership would work as well at this point, and b) I honestly don't think he's needed. Doug has proven, to me at least, that he's more than capable of flying this ship alone (with the help of the most excellent cast and crew of course). :-)

    Edit: I give this episode 9/10.
     
  7. Whisper

    Whisper First Technician

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    It's great to see people enjoy episodes to the degree you can feel the pleasure from the text. It'e even better when it's from people that are long term fans and who have contributed to a significant number of post in the forums.

    I hope future series gives every at least the same if not more enjoyment.
     
  8. Slainmonkey

    Slainmonkey Deck Sergeant

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    As much as I enjoyed this series, I really hope that Doug fixes the issue with rushed endings and hope that series XII doesn't recycle as many old episode concepts. Still I must say I was pretty happy with series XI, really has me very optimistic about series XII!
     
  9. Ant E

    Ant E Flight Co-Ordinator

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    Recycle??? What???

    What exactly did he recycle?
     
  10. Slainmonkey

    Slainmonkey Deck Sergeant

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    Twentica - Time traveling to earth past is starting to become obligatory in Red Dwarf now.
    Samsara - Justice II
    Give and Take - As much as I love it revisited Stasis Leak, even if it did so in a very clever way.
    Officer Rimmer - Multiple Rimmers are an idea the show has done before, though oddly it veered more into DNA territory.
    Krysis - The Nova 3 scene borrowed a lot from Legion.
    Can of Worms - Polymorph III

    Don't get me wrong, most of these are fine on their own because the episodes still were original enough to stand on their own, but when they are all in the same series it all starts to feel a little like a greatest hits album. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed series XI and it's been a massive step in the right direction but I wish at least one episode was completely something we haven't seen before.....and that's what I'd like to see in series XII!
     
  11. Ant E

    Ant E Flight Co-Ordinator

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    Disagree completely. I think this is one of the most original series since series 5.
     
  12. jimmydischarge

    jimmydischarge Third Technician

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    I like that analogy. I think of Red Dwarf as my favourite band that put out some amazing albums back in the day that I can still listen to over and over. Then one of main songwriters left that band and haven't been the same since. Now they're back with most of the original lineup and have put out a few reunion albums that have some good songs on them, but nothing that equals their glory days.

    I liked Can Of Worms. There were a few plot holes (what else is new?) but overall it had that classic Dwarf feel to it for me. Not sure where I rank this episode among the rest of the season yet, but I think it might be in the Top 3.
     
  13. Pembers

    Pembers Deck Sergeant

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    Just watched it again and more of it made sense, I've decided I definitely do like it, I like it a lot.
     
  14. Slainmonkey

    Slainmonkey Deck Sergeant

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    While this was a good episode, I really hope this will be the last Polymorph episode. I mean surely the show has taken the idea of this particular monster as far as it will go. This episode did exceed my expectations but I feel another episode with a Polymorph would be Doug pushing his luck!
     
  15. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    I thought there was a bit of a plot hole when they were circling each other, because surely the real ones would know they were the real ones. And I was really disappointed by the resolution, it felt flat. Cat just walks in and shoots them all because "a mother knows her own". Nothing to do with any of the build up, just a quick resolution. Like Rimmer resigning because they close a door on him. It just didn't feel like a proper ending.

    I was also disappointed by the reveal. Kryten just does a scan and says "it's a Polymorph" before anything's kicked off. Couldn't there have been a better way to find out, where maybe something actually happens first? They might as well have called it Polymorph III if they were just going to signpost it.

    I was ambivalent about it being a Polymorph. One the one had I like continuity, I like it when Doug tips his hat to long-term viewers and makes it feel like all the series are still together in the same universe. Sometimes it feels like every episode goes straight down the memory hole. People are complaining that we already had two Polymorph episodes, but Polymorphs have appeared less than GELFs and Simulants. It's a recurring villian. I actually prefer that to when we get new villians awkwardly dropped on us this late in the game. Like the Expanoids, if they were so powerful that they threatened the universe like Kryten said, how come we'd never heard of them till Series XI.

    On the other hand, I was disappointed because I was hoping it would actually be a real cat-lady. Obviously she'd die or leave by the end of the episode, but I was looking forward to finding out what happened to them at long last. The last time we got any background on them was in Series I.

    I thought it was silly how easily-killed Polymorphs are, just one shot and they explode into goo. Which in turn made me skeptical about the idea that they killed each other for food, because there didn't seem to be much left. It looked a bit video-gamey.

    I always get a bit annoyed when I hear the term "GELF-space". "GELF-space" seems to move around a lot. The name makes it sound like it's one big region of space, but there must be lots of different GELF-spaces because I'm sure we've crossed GELF-space about three or four times now.

    I thought it would have been much funnier if the cat-women at the end turned out to be real. Sure it would raise awkward questions (has he been taking them in and out of stasis the whole time? what about when they lost Red Dwarf and were on Starbug for two series?), but it would still be better than "it's a dream". When I was kid I got told never to end stories like that. The viewer wants to feel like what they watched mattered. Again, it felt like a lazy ending.
     
  16. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    If Red Dwarf were Metallica then XI is Death Magnetic. It's not doing anything new or original, but it's a return to something like the original...and it almost helps you forget about St. Anger (Series 8 )! :lol:
     
  17. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    Couldn't disagree more. When you were a kid you were told never to end "stories" like that, not one tiny, mostly irrelevant scene in a story. Unless you're suggesting that the entire episode was Cat's dream (which isn't impossible but is open to interpretation) then there is absolutely no writers rule against having a dream sequence.
    Having the Cat's girlfriend's be real would have done more than just raise awkward questions about their maintenance, it would essentially turn him into a rather unpleasant character and have furthered the argument concerning Doug Naylor's writing of female characters as little more than disposable sex objects.
    As the object of a lustful dream there is no problem with their inclusion. However any idea that Cat had been keeping what would essentially be two sex slaves on Z deck is more than a bit dodgy. Not to mention it would make his lack of understanding over sex earlier in the episode nonsensical.

    Ah...that makes more sense! Oddly I heard it just fine when Cat said it, I guess the second time it was muted a little by the audience laughter.

    I like to think Cat fell asleep the second that Lister left the room though, as I think Lister's little talk was one of the nicest moments in the series and exactly the kind of Lister I've missed since Doug seems to prefer writing him as Fry from Futurama these days. The last time I can think of when we got that heartfelt Lister was Back to Earth. It's the Lister I'd rather see if we really must keep having "bunk scenes". It's the perfect counterpoint to Rimmer's bitterness, instead of him just acting idiotic or angry.
     
  18. Slainmonkey

    Slainmonkey Deck Sergeant

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    I'm glad it was a dream because when I thought it was going to imply there really were 2 other Cat ladies on Red Dwarf I was growning at how lame that would be, the fact it was a dream is the only reason I give that season a pass. On top of that it would undermine Cat's actions throughout the course of the episode making everything he did not make any sense. For me it continues to play into the fact his a character who has never been able to have proper interactions with the opposite sex (well other then Kochanski who was never interested in him) and his insecurities and sexual frustration.....it would make no sense, in the worst possible way!
     
  19. Underdunn

    Underdunn First Technician

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    But it's still a Mexican stand-off isn't it? The point of a Mexican stand-off is that as soon as one person fires a gun everyone else starts firing too. The only person real Lister would know was definitely a polymorph is the other version of him, but if he shoots it then either the polymorph kryten or Rimmer will shoot him... within seconds all six of them are firing at each other in close proximity. It would basically be the final scene of reservoir dogs. They'd all die.
     
  20. Underdunn

    Underdunn First Technician

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    Aye, your thinking of the 'it was all a dream' trope there DSit15C, which is something that negates an entire story. But this wasn't that at all. This was just a 'dream scene' within a story - its only the fact it comes at the end that's throwing you. Everything that happened in that episode actually happened - then they did a dream gag as a coda, that's all. Your old english teachers would have been okay with it, I assure you. :-D
     

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