RDXII EPISODE 1 - CURED - DISCUSSION THREAD

Discussion in 'RED DWARF XI / XII' started by Seb, Oct 5, 2017.

  1. sundayforsammy

    sundayforsammy Deck Sergeant

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    Really ? I can't imagine how you got to that idea. They are playing poker, the reference is so obviously to 'The Cincinatti Kid' a film about a poker playing card shark. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0059037/
     
  2. UltraDevotee

    UltraDevotee Catering Officer

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    The third episode of series 12 to be filmed became Cured according to Wikipedia. I have to say Seb is pretty much correct in assessing it as the "funniest episode since RD came back" because when I watched it a week and a half ago I was laughing loudly all the way through, like a lost series 4 episode as one critic put it. Only Give and Take has been even more funny all the way through than Cured. So yes I largely agree with this opinion and feel Cured was really very much like series 4-6.

    I haven't seen Timewave yet but this episode is my favourite so far!
     
  3. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    Who noticed these "worst fears" cropping up?

    Lister's worst fear is being castrated.
    Rimmer's worst fear is being buried alive.
    Kryten's worst fear is not being able to mop.
    Cat's worst fear is drowning.

    Right so Cat must have been secretly flipping his lid during Duct Soup and Back to Earth I. I wish they'd worked previously established character traits into this bit. Cat's I assume is because he's a Cat. Lister's is basically any man. Rimmer's was arbitrary. Kryten's made sense I suppose. But we know Lister is claustrophobic, but it's /Rimmer/ who gets buried alive!

    I thought it was lame how easily-escapable they all were. Stick Kryten's head on a mop, but leave his body wandering about and all he has to do is pop his head back on. There wasn't any feeling of urgency in this bit, it was just like doing the rounds of rescuing them. I really didn't like that Lister was tied down with ropes. Ropes, on a futuristic space-station. And that he happened to have a knife in his boot. That's handy.
     
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  4. Mardroid

    Mardroid Console Officer

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    If you see the Cat being afraid of water as a contradiction to past Dwarf, bear in mind he does state "I hate water! This jacket is dry clean only!" * You could interpret his real fear is that his nice fashionable clothes will be ruined, which is consistent with the past.

    As for Lister's handy knife, I thought that a bit convenient too, and yet it's the sort of thing I can imagine Lister having, so it didn't bother me too much.

    Incidentally, I picked up on something on my recent rewatch, that I originally missed. The psychotic scientist character mentions that he was executed. Even despite Krytens initial explanation that the gene treatment was on the clones of original psychopaths, I somehow missed the fact the scientist was such a clone, thinking him the original scientist being experimented on.

    I guess the misdirection concerning the others blindsided me to this. So the whole thing was not a ruse, just the identity of the actual patient.

    * It might have been another item of clothing. I forget the exact line.
     
  5. jmc2000

    jmc2000 Deck Sergeant

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    Oh, super - do you happen to have the line in question? I missed that too!
     
  6. DivineVarod

    DivineVarod Supply Officer

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    Worse for Rimmer though, as he is unable to suffocate/die he'd be locked in there for months/maybe years if someone didn't get him out. We know those lightbees last over 600 years ...
     
  7. UltraDevotee

    UltraDevotee Catering Officer

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    Tbh, I feel now that when I re-watch Cured when I get the blu-ray in a months time, not only will it make more sense but anyway really I am already aware that the whole con with the droids and the end works. Another poster mentioned in another thread that really the scientist's actions are those of a deranged madman so really his unpredictability does make sense and torturing the Dwarfers is understandable too because he is a psychopath. Also like another poster said really he does needs the Cat's loyalty because the Cat is similarly diagnosed as a psychopath.

    So really it does hold together fairly probably even before my second watch in a few weeks and so far though I was one who enjoyed Timewave very much, Cured is the only episode so far to be really good and like vintage Dwarf after a first watch.
     
  8. UltraDevotee

    UltraDevotee Catering Officer

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    I know some people haven't been massively keen of this episode on here but after rewatching it on Monday - when I got the blu-ray - I personally think Cured is simply classic Dwarf. IMHO, it is like a lost series 4-6 episode because it has similar droid historical figures like those in Meltdown - just the notorious ones this time - combined with the darkness of series 5/6 due to the theme of psychopaths and presence of Hitler in particular. Though the presence of Hitler, I am not offended by not just because it is not the real one, but also because Hitler has featured at least a couple of times before.

    That scene with Lister playing guitar with Hitler is simply not series 8 throwaway rubbish - it is so much deeper and cleverer than you first think. Really - as Doug re-tweeted a fan mentioning this on twitter and someone in my house worked it out too - the guitar playing with Hitler is like an image for the rise of the right wing in current politics and how really going along with it is like playing guitar with that evil Third Reich leader.

    The other issue that another poster and I mentioned is does the episode make sense? e.g. Why did the psychopathic scientist not just threaten the Dwarfers when they arrived at the space station with a gun? Well not just do agree still with the fact (in my post above) that he is a psychopath and would probably want to try and torture the Dwarfers, but also perhaps he had the hoax with the disguised droids because how was he going to know that they were not armed?

    In terms of why he did not just shoot the other Dwarfers and then force the Cat at gunpoint to fly Starbug, perhaps it was not just because he was a psychopath and so his actions could be unpredictable/naive. Perhaps he really needed the Cat's loyalty because he was worried that the Cat would somehow find another way of escaping/defeating him. Anyway, he was too trusting because he thought that the Cat was a psychopath who would betray and harm his crew mates while instead it was like said earlier by Lister I think - more a psychopath in terms of having no empathy and being egocentric than being a risk to "the boys from the Dwarf."

    Bottom line, I know some people are not sure about this episode but I think it is one of the funniest too line-for-line since it was revived on Dave, it makes enough sense and it is like a lost classic. Even the disability gag has grown on me more as really Rimmer is a git and that is the kind of thing you would expect from him so I think this episode might well get a nine out of ten, excellent Red Dwarf status from me.
     
  9. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    I find this logic hard to believe on Dougs part.
     
  10. Rageofangels

    Rageofangels First Technician

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    I think Cured is a great episode, and was a great opener for series XII. And being honest about it, although there maybe some consitency issues with Cured in the end there are so many issues with the whole show that it's best just to enjoy it for what it is... i.e. a good laugh! One of the best episodes (in my top ten at least) is Tikka To Ride, and that has a plot hole in it the size of Jupiter! Who cares they've come back to earth all of a sudden, when they could never do it before? Who cares they've solved all their problems in once second, but don't seem to realise it? Who cares, when the episode is this much fun.
    Okay, so continuity takes a back seat, (and I love continuity) but I just sit back and chuckle.
     
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  11. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    I wonder what Cat trying to sleep with Messalina represents.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2017
  12. BigOleDummy

    BigOleDummy Console Officer

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    Upon multiple watching's.................. I still think Cured is a terrible episode. Easily my least favorite of the XI/XII set and vying for least liked episode ever. But to answer your question ........ trying to lose his embarrassing virginity maybe? ;-) Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar you know.
     
  13. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    The Cat has always been big on the ladies, well most of the time anyway.

    Sometimes he is more big on himself though.

    I think though to say all of that interest in the ladies is because he is a pathetic loser wanting to lose his virginity is fairly insulting to the character over the years and i hope that never becomes a thing.
     
  14. BigOleDummy

    BigOleDummy Console Officer

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    Now how you got all THAT from my post has me shaking my head :shake:. Where is it said or even implied that THAT is the Cats defining quality? Nowhere. Cat is a multi faceted character, who clearly has some issues female companion-wise that he addresses on a semi-regular basis.

    Sometimes a cigar IS JUST a cigar.
     
  15. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    I agree, my question was a tongue-in-cheek response to the notion that Lister jamming with Hitler is an allegory for the contemporary rise of the far-right. Maybe Doug really did have that in mind, but it's pretty oblique and certainly I didn't read anything like that into it.
     
  16. BigOleDummy

    BigOleDummy Console Officer

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    Agreed. I didn't "get that" at all. I STILL think the episode is weak but definitely not because of that particular concern.
     
  17. UltraDevotee

    UltraDevotee Catering Officer

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    I don't know, maybe the re-tweet from Doug of a fan mentioning Cured was referring to the politics of recent years represented something in the episode other than the guitar duet with Hitler. Maybe I have got the wrong end of the stick as so many haven't agreed with it on here though obviously that's fair enough if I have got it wrong.

    But I perhaps prefer to interpret that guitar duet like that because it makes it so much more effective and deeper as really the politicians/people who are going along with some of the things now are like playing guitar (going along) with Hitler somewhat. e.g. anti-immigration, anti-disability policies etc.

    I don't know maybe I've got it completely wrong but perhaps that is how I prefer to interpret it as it makes it so much better than something that could just be taken from the rotten half of series 8.

    But anyway if I am wrong I stand corrected and perhaps that tweet referred to another incident in the episode including the fake Hitler.
     
  18. UltraDevotee

    UltraDevotee Catering Officer

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    Yes that is another thing I would have to say is that I am now one hundred per cent convinced that Cured was such classic Dwarf that it deserved to start series 12. The audience only reduced by 0.06 million for Siliconia I think so that vindicates it being the opener too.

    In terms of consistency, I think Cured might work completely now because surely if Telford had shot the other three Dwarfers he would simply not be able to threaten the Cat at gunpoint too. He has to have the Cat's loyalty and threatening the Cat is pointless - and presumably the Cat might know this - as he has to keep at least one Dwarfer alive in order to escape the space station via that Dwarfer providing the start up codes for Starbug. If he had eliminated the Cat too he would perish himself on the space station as wasn't it something like it or the planet was going to be destroyed in a few hours?

    I suppose he cannot harm the Cat and the Cat can't escape himself as he would just be shot so it is a stalemate situation. But surely the Cat would not want to allow himself to escape with Telford when surely once he had got the start-up codes, Telford would just shoot the Cat too anyway?

    So really he cannot shoot the Cat as he would be stranded on the space station to die so he does need the Cat's loyalty in order to escape so that must be why he is too trusting of the Cat being a fellow psychopath and then the Cat "pokey" faces him and defeats him.

    Dunno, does that make sense enough? Or am I just trying to defend an episode I see as vintage Red Dwarf from criticism too much?
     
  19. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    I don't think Cured is that bad an episode. Bits of it made me roll my eyes, but I don't hold truck with any political criticism of it, like it's immoral to depict a Hitler-droid sympathetically so we need to come up with a tortured allegory where it's actually a criticism of UKIP or whatever. "Going along with Hitler" would be genociding people and invading other countries and stopping freedom of speech. To the best of my knowledge the contemporary far-right doesn't advocate any of these things. I don't believe in Reductio ad Hitlerum. Winston Churchill was anti-immigration, he famously used the slogan "Keep England White" in the 1950s in opposition to black immigration. So if someone's anti-immigration they're going along with Churchill.

    My political criticism if any would centre on Vlad. Vlad III was included as a villain even though his war was defensive. Vlad III is only a villain if you think the Ottomans had a right to conquer Europe. Though this wasn't a big deal because I accept that Vlad is considered a villain in pop culture even if I think it's wrong, and Red Dwarf isn't there to give us history lessons per se. I know his method of impaling was cruel but in principle the Ottomans had it coming - if he'd chopped their heads off like normal then he'd be remembered as a hero who liberated his homeland.

    Bits that made me roll my eyes:
    - Abrupt ending
    - Contrived "worst fears" we've never heard of before
    - Escape sequence too easy
    - Back-story of Telford and the droids unnecessarily complicated and nonsensical
    - Little-to-no screentime for Stalin, Vlad and Messalina
    - Messalina is nowhere near as famously evil as the others
    - Telford giving Cat the gun convenient, obvious, and unnecessary

    But I think it's a fun little ship-of-the-week story in grand old Red Dwarf tradition, and the startup joke with starbug is good, especially when it comes back at the end as a plot-point.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2017
  20. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    My feeling on the episode is that it was decent but a couple of things kinda hurt it for me

    *Camp hitler had moments that started to grate on me abit
    *The Cat back and forth at the end got far too silly
     

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