Episode 2 - Fathers and Suns

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by Urgamanix, Oct 11, 2012.

  1. simulant37

    simulant37 Science Officer

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    Bloomin' hell!! :shock:
     
  2. Seymour_Clufley

    Seymour_Clufley First Technician

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    Yes, but in how many societies have men been expected to be passive, nurturing and impractical, while women were expected to be aggressive, detached and practical?

    I think you and I basically agree that there is a mix of nature/nurture, it's just that you think it's more nurture and I think it's more nature.

    Clearly social constructs get attached to the gender roles, but that does not negate the gender roles themselves, nor suggest that those roles are fictitious or choosable by any individual. Generally speaking, boys want to be men, girls want to be women, men want to be good at being men, and women want to be good at being women. While some of the criteria by which their "performance" can be appraised are no doubt socially constructed, certain criteria are permanent: women are gentle and loving, men are aggressive and practical. Women are usually far more perceptive and attuned to other people's emotions; men are attuned to challenges and random opportunities for learning. (Many is the time that a woman has pointed something out to me about another person that I hadn't noticed; rare is the time that a man has done so.)


    By that logic, nobody would be good at wiring plugs, and every plug in the world would remain permanently unwired. Clearly that is not the case, which means that we have to talk in generalities, not specific skillsets, as if nature had conceived of domestic electricals along with DNA and evolution. What is suggested by men being better at wiring plugs (and I have never seen a woman wiring a plug, though I have seen many men do it) is that men have a natural advantage with systemic thought, logical thought, rule-discerning, and practicality.

    Actually, no, I wouldn't. The famous chefs are all men, after all.

    I would say that cooking (and indeed, cleaning) are duties assumed by women because they are part of caring, nurturing and home-making. Men cook when it is an event, a challenge, an ego-kick (the barbecue). Women do it as a matter of course.
     
  3. Bluey

    Bluey Science Officer

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    Being objective, I'd say both Dimension Jump and Meltdown are better than Fathers and Suns, but from a personal point of view Fathers and Suns just leaves me with a warm, fuzzy feeling inside, which is something that only very few Red Dwarf episodes are capable of.

    I've never been fond of Dimension Jump. The opening scenes in the alternative universe leave me cold, and the rest I don't like all that much better. Barrie is just wonderful as Ace though. I'm pretty fond of Meltdown, probably more so than the average fan since this is a relatively unpopular episode.
     
  4. Bluey

    Bluey Science Officer

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    I'd also like to point out that Fathers and Suns is the first Red Dwarf episode I've truly enjoyed since 1999.
     
  5. simulant37

    simulant37 Science Officer

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    I have never understood the appeal of Meltdown. It might be my least favourite episode ever!! :x
     
  6. danatblair

    danatblair Third Technician

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    I wasn't aware that meltdown was unpopular. To me it always had the same basic traits of a good rimmer episode. Give rimmer everything he wants - but in the worst possible way. That is one of the few bits i liked about f&S and a lot of what i liked about trojan.
     
  7. Bluey

    Bluey Science Officer

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    It's well written and gives another good insight into Rimmer's character. The only thing that annoys me is that pixels-and-bongos transition effect between some scenes, which is very un-Dwarfy.
     
  8. Ally1990

    Ally1990 First Technician

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    I've just watched Trojan and Fathers back-to-back and I enjoyed Trojan a lot more, perhaps enough to push it up to 9/10. Any comments about the plot didn't bother me because I was enjoying it so much. Watching Fathers, I don't know why, but I enjoyed it a little more too. Perhaps up to 7/10. I still wouldn't even put it in my top 20, though.

    Some points about Rimmer.

    I'm liking this Rimmer more and more and probably some more if it's confirmed in episode six that it's the definitive Rimmer. I know we all suspect it is, but I'd like it signed and sealed.

    I feel that this Rimmer is slightly softened and slightly warmer (although he's still fundamentally Rimmer), and perhaps it's down to age and responsibility. He has been in effective command of Red Dwarf for a while now, plus he says at the beginning of Fathers, 'the ship is falling apart, I need some help', suggesting he's taken on even more responsibility since Holly went down. Perhaps the slight changes are a part of that. Perhaps he's learned to loosen up as a way of destressing and making his life easier, maybe even on a subconscious level.

    Oh, and one more thing. Can I take a moment of your time to nitpick?

    When Lister is in the drive room, drunk and looking at Pree, there's a shot at the end of the scene of the computer. It's taken from behind the boys who are all looking at Pree - but where's Lister? He wasn't there! I know why they did it (so you could see Pree), but I can't help but notice this. It bugs me.

    I'll stop nitpicking now.
     
  9. Bluey

    Bluey Science Officer

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    It's always been pretty maligned on this board over the years, and came only 35th in our recent poll.
     
  10. simulant37

    simulant37 Science Officer

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    I find all the look-alike stuff painfully unfunny. It looks really cheap & just a silly idea.
     
  11. Seymour_Clufley

    Seymour_Clufley First Technician

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    Valen, I am sorry that you feel under attack, and I perfectly understand why you want to defend your discipline.

    However, responding to a reasoned post with a hissy-fit about objectivity and how sociologists are far above the common sense of the laity does your profession no favours. You simply look like someone who thought that an academic training would enable him to pronounce on the human condition without having to defend his pronouncements when they directly contradict everyday experience.

    How much everyday experience would it take, incidentally, before you accepted that perhaps a sociologist was biased and bound to produce certain findings?

    Finally, you cannot expect me, a person not trained in Sociology, to be scientific in anything he says. But you could use very scientific methods to come up with a lie; that would not be difficult. If a sociologist says something which I find preposterous, his using the argument from authority is simply not a good enough defence.

    No, I would not walk into an architect's office and suggest that I knew more about architecture than him. But the analogy is a bad one, because architecture is a science whereas sociology is an inherently incomplete analysis of humanity, which is not only limited by sample size, but vulnerable to error of a thousand kinds, and the bias of the researcher (and funder).
     
  12. Bluey

    Bluey Science Officer

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    I think the 'cheap' look is part of the problem. The outdoor scenes just don't convince as a giant theme park.
     
  13. danatblair

    danatblair Third Technician

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    I have no problem with examining the fine details. That's the fun part. I do wonder which rimmer this is. Is it the original hologram or a hologram based on the second rimmer or is it a personality disc that amalgamated the two- thereby giving him all of both rimmer's memories.

    the only thing that would disappoint me about having the original rimmer back is that i liked the notion that everyone - even rimmer had some chance at self improvement and nobility. I would really almost prefer it's a new rimmer programmed with the momeories of both to just being the original. though, really, the original rimmer was probably one of the least qualified canidate for the job. it's more realistic that he would fail, but i wonder what that would do to him in terms of him personality.
     
  14. simulant37

    simulant37 Science Officer

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    I don't care which Rimmer it is. Although I found the whole stuff about Rimmer becoming the next Ace Rimmer totally stupid. :x
     
  15. neilold frankincense and myrrh

    neilold frankincense and myrrh Flight Co-Ordinator

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    only just caught up with this thread. i am not surprised about the marding over the taiwan tony comment in the episode. It's nothing more than i'd exppect from some of the whiny pc saps on this forum. Anyway i thought the episode itself was quite funny, better than the first in my opinion
     
  16. simulant37

    simulant37 Science Officer

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    There are no "whiny pc saps" here just people that don't like racist stereotyping!!! :x:x:x
     
  17. danatblair

    danatblair Third Technician

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    I can see how the rimmer becoming ace thing could come off as out of the blue. Ace is meant to be the pure opposite of Rimmer. Never in any other part of the show has Rimmer had much of a redeeming nature. Really, he isn't meant to have one. So developing those traits suddenly, would be odd.

    the current rimmer is a bit more mellow. I wonder if rimmer and lister themselves consider themselves friends. Having been stuck with each other for 10 to 20 years they would have reached some sort of an agreement you would think. Rimmer was asking him for help, as was mentioned. that might indicate at least some shift.
     
  18. johna1905

    johna1905 Second Technician

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    Loved this ep, only fault i have is what was going on with the kryten mask during the lauging gas scenes
     
  19. simulant37

    simulant37 Science Officer

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    The laughing gas scene!! OMG that was terrible! :x
     
  20. danatblair

    danatblair Third Technician

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    While I suspect simulant may have meant the scene overall and not the make-up specifically (if I am wrong i apologize)- I do have a question about Kryten. I i have heard people comment on his make-up this series. While it looks different to me, I think I am missing something about his costume. I am not seeing why it is bad exactly. I am not saying I see it as goog, just that i am not picking up on the detail that is really setting others off.
     

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