Episode 2 - Fathers and Suns

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by Urgamanix, Oct 11, 2012.

  1. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    I'd say its pretty clear that they are friends who have moved way beyond the days of Future Echoes and Lister telling Rimmer up front that he doesn't actually like him.

    There is definite affection when Rimmer leaves to become Ace, Blue explores Lister missing Rimmer (although viewing him through rose tinted glasses).

    I think they are the sort of friends who would drift apart quite quickly if returned to a normal situation but in the environment they are in their shared experiences and adventures have formed a bond between them. The old Rimmer would have resented Lister being the hero at the end of F&S but the new Rimmer did a sort of awkward little dance and tried to fit in. beautiful to see. :P

    What is odd about them is their living situation. Why continue to share a room after all these years on an essentially empty craft?

    I sort of get the feeling that it's become a living room with the bunks kind of just preserved out of nostalgia and that Rimmer and Lister probably have their own rooms.
     
  2. danatblair

    danatblair Third Technician

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    You know, the is a really good point. There is no need for them to share quarters or space on the ship. And rimmer tried to avoid the slightest moments of bonding previously. I liked the touch were he kinda danced with the others, but was kinda in his own awkward little realm.
     
  3. simulant37

    simulant37 Science Officer

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    Thing is, if they had really spent so much time together in space their friendship would have 'developed'. :eek:ops:
     
  4. RECTUMfacedPYGMY

    RECTUMfacedPYGMY Catering Officer

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    I think they love each other now to be honest.:P
     
  5. Ally1990

    Ally1990 First Technician

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    I loved the scene when Rimmer did a little dance. It wasn't eccentric like the others or anything, it just felt right. I like that about his character. Doug has taken away some of the 'bastard' but it's still Rimmer.

    Of course, that scene was stolen by Kryten's insane 'finger-pointing' dance in the background. Some of his melodramatics I like, and that was one. I love his idea of dancing. Actually, people did dance like that in the '90s.
     
  6. simulant37

    simulant37 Science Officer

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    "Ooooh Rimmer, you really are HARD light!" :eek:ops:
     
  7. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    I quite liked the laughing gas bit especially Krtyten's cheery "Oh it's sealed, were doomed" and Rimmer's chortled "here comes the wall". The contrast between mortal danger and them being seized with laughter was a funny one to me.
     
  8. simulant37

    simulant37 Science Officer

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    Sorry, it was just stupid. Came out of nowhere, & an ill-judged tone.
     
  9. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    I wouldn't say it "came out of nowhere". The ship suddenly being mysteriously out of anesthetic was referenced to sow the seed that Pree had taken it (although I agree this only came across retrospectively and, to some, not at all). The episode was quite high on the drama side of things so I found the crew laughing at their own potential demise a humorous concept. I certainly found it more fitting than the balloon of audience laughter that played over Lister being sucked out into space and potentially killed!
     
  10. johna1905

    johna1905 Second Technician

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    What i mean about krytens mask is that it seemd all creased up around the mouth area, didn't look right at all.

    the thing ive noticed with krytens costume as well, well the thing i think is missing, he should have had more rings around his neck like in previous incarnations of the costume. it would cover the base of the neck at back which seems more bare this time round
     
  11. johna1905

    johna1905 Second Technician

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    in fact i don't know why they didn't have it the same at BTE, didn't think there was nothing wrong with that incarnation
     
  12. Seymour_Clufley

    Seymour_Clufley First Technician

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    Valen, I don't mean to be difficult but if you are going to paraphrase my words to "nothing new really" then I have no idea what it is you're replying to. From what you've written, it looks like a reply to something I must have written about Stoke Me A Clipper.

    There are many reasons why that episode doesn't work for me. It's the tone of VII, that overbearing "we're doing human drama!" thing. It's the total fail of a "human drama" in which a hitherto realistic character becomes a superhero. It's the short space of time Rimmer has to become Ace. It's the implication that the only way to become "good" is to become a superhero. It's the totally unnecessary lying to Cat and Kryten that their Rimmer has died. It's the amoral usurping of the previous Ace's funeral for Rimmer (who hasn't even died). And it's Ace's accent, which is a warbly caricature of Ace from Dimension Jump. The whole thing was badly judged and badly done, IMHO.

    I mean, it's a good idea that the original Ace set up a chain whereby random Rimmers are plucked from their normal existence and compelled to take up the mantle, to shed their neuroses and become heroes. I can see the appeal of that concept. But it ignores that the things which made the original Ace did not happen to these other Rimmers. He was put back a year at school and the humiliation propelled him forwards, and at every stage subsequently he would have gained knowledge, understanding, abilities, praise, prestige, criticism, opportunities... and this gradually turned him into the character we meet in Dimension Jump. To expect "our" Rimmer to leapfrog all of that and just take up the mantle is... silly.

    I agree with you that the current Rimmer is more mellow. But lying to his brother while he dies, shows that underneath the charm he is as bitter and twisted as before - in fact possibly even more than before, because at any time before now he would have been honest to Howard on his deathbed - but you could blame that on very bad writing, or a disinterest in depth on the part of Doug Naylor.
     
  13. Seymour_Clufley

    Seymour_Clufley First Technician

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    The laughing gas, along with the other thing which I will not be so tactless as to reintroduce into the thread, was one of the only things I liked about Fathers & Suns. I just thought it was hilarious that, faced with certain death, they were collapsing into laughter and bad jokes.

    As I said before, it was reminiscent of the climax in Back to Reality, except that here there is a surreal absurdity about it all. I loved all of their performances in that scene.

    Someone mentioned that the episode starts off as a normal, boring day then gradually descends to the point that they're all laughing about their own imminent death. That's a nice observation, and I wish the episode had done it better. An episode purely about this truly bizarre day, starting normal and ending with utter insanity, would have been a true classic.
     
  14. Robert26

    Robert26 Second Technician

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    The laughing gas was good. It was there probably to explain how Lister got his tooth out.
     
  15. Slainmonkey

    Slainmonkey Deck Sergeant

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    I think most of it was well executed and IMO is one the the best plots in the entire series, it's offbeat yet dark at the same time and actually built on Lister's pathos. However this episode is offset but a few minutes of rather bad series VIII material that conflicts with the grimmer tone of the rest of the episode and kinda feels to be stuck in last second because they decided there wasn't enough jokes. However this was an episode that I didn't feel needed it, without those scenes it would have worked greatly as a dark comedy episode and would have actually been one of my all time favourites.......as such it's left me with rather mixed feeling because this episode could have and should have been so much more.
     
  16. kayzee

    kayzee Skutter

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    The problem I'm having with this series so far, is that you have to delve quite deep into the meaning to find the humour... it's not just plainly funny like Friday Night Dinner which is on atm, now that has me laughing out loud.

    Saying that, although once again I feel Father & Suns is completely forgettable, it was better than Trogan. The idea was fine, it just wasn't executed that well.

    Talking toaster >>> talking vending machines.
     
  17. Freeborn

    Freeborn Flight Co-Ordinator

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    I didn't see your link, no. I must've missed that somehow. But yes I'm well aware of the case. It was a very upsetting story indeed. It was certainly a difficult situation all around. But I feel the psychologist in question was rather misguided to say the least (as are quite a few - but most certainly not all psychologists and psychiatrists)

    However, the way in which you've twisted various arguments and attempted to use this case to prove that your extremely biased, unscientific, propaganda-ridden beliefs hold some kind of truth is very unsavoury indeed.

    What you appear to be doing on this thread is taking a bunch of loosely-related complex issues and mixing them all up into one big entangled web of misinterpreted, conspiracy theory-based, misguided ignorance.

    "Scientific dictatorship" indeed *shakes head* Paranoid tot!

    Now there's irony if I ever read it. It's clear you have very little understanding of human nature or the basics of cause and effect. You've made that abundantly clear with your arrogant replies to myself and a whole bunch of other forum members.

    News flash! we humans are a hell of a lot more complex than you seem to believe. And environmental influences play a much bigger part in this complex construct we call society than you seem to think.

    And that's my last word on the subject*, as this discussion has stayed so far from the initial topic now that some people have been put-off wanting to comment on this thread about the actual episode itself.

    *unless you change your mind about responding to my initial response to you regarding the natural, factual interrelationship of nature AND nurture. But I personally feel that at this stage it would make sense to take these discussions to another thread in the garbage Pod.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNnIGh9g6fA
     
  18. blaggard

    blaggard First Technician

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    This has been done to death elsewhere, I think, but the main reason behind the change to Kryten's costume appears to have been Robert Llewewllyn's comfort. It's no picnic being stuck in that thing for hours on end, so it's no surprise that certain elements have been changed to make it easier. In particular, this applies to Kryten's mouth, which now seems to have no 'lips' made of rubber at all, thus the lips you're seeing are actually Robert's. This bothered me when I saw the first still, but having seen it 'in action' now in the first two episode, is something that has become background noise and doesn't bother me.

    One thing I did notice was that Kryten seems to be wearing trainers. I honestly can't remember if that was the case in prior series, but again, I'd assume it was to make sure that Robert wasn't in pain for the entire recording.

    presumably somebody can confirm or deny what I've just said.
     
  19. Fairfax

    Fairfax Catering Officer

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    Completely agree with you there. Jarring at first but very quickly becomes unimportant.
     
  20. Smegged

    Smegged First Technician

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    Looks like I really enjoyed some things that others really didn't...

    Watched the episode full through for the 3rd time yesterday. Two lines that made me laugh were the Medi-Bot's rather evil-sounding "you realize we are out of the anasthetic?" and Kryten losing his nut with the laughing gas while declaring that Pree's powers are limitless. I thought it was hilarious...but to each their own, I suppose!
     

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