Episode 2 - Fathers and Suns

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by Urgamanix, Oct 11, 2012.

  1. james3325

    james3325 Second Technician

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    the laughing gas bit with lister having his tooth pulled reminded me of a similar scene in the The Pink Panther Strikes Again when Inspector Clouseau pulls out inspector dreyfus tooth and they used the laughing gas
     
  2. Seymour_Clufley

    Seymour_Clufley First Technician

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    Then you may also have missed the links I gave you to two articles which I think you would benefit from reading. This one, starting from the paragraph "Another modern impulse", and the first section of this one.

    I agree. Certainly, it would be ludicrous to state that all psychologists and psychiatrists (and sociologists) are misguided.

    Rather manipulative, Freeborn.

    You would need to be more specific before I could answer that charge. I suspect you are saying that you disagree with what I've said, on the grounds that it is pessimistic and conservative, and thus in direct opposition to your oblivious scientistic optimism.

    I see you have read one of those links, after all, though it seems that you have not quite understood what was being said. When you dismiss the idea of "scientific dictatorship" as "paranoid tot", you should be aware that Theodore Dalrymple has traveled extensively in Communist societies, so he knows about dictatorship, and worked for 40 years in the medical profession, which would suggest he might know a thing or two about scientists (and scientific organisations). However, even without the experience, knowledge and intelligence of a man like Dalrymple, I don't know how anyone could be so naive and idealistic as to think that a government in possession of complete understanding of people would govern benignly for very long. It is even stated that the British government wanted to use such understanding to extend police activity in advance of anyone committing any crime. Paranoid tot? Optimism is important, but I think you are drunk on it.

    First, I have not made it abundantly clear that I have very little understanding of human nature. I have simply demonstrated that you and I have differing opinions about it. I am very interested in human nature; it is possible but seems unlikely that I have "very little understanding" of it - certainly most people I meet disagree with your assessment.

    Second, on the charge that I have little understanding of cause and effect, I would be interested to see the evidence upon which you base that assertion.

    Third, you have (rather over-emotionally) twisted the meaning of my words. Here is what you just did:

    SEYMOUR: I think we can update/revise/etc. our understanding of human nature, but not human nature itself.

    FREEBORN: You have very little understanding of human nature.

    The only logical meaning to your statement is that, in your opinion, we can update/revise human nature. (Either that or you were just attempting to insult me.) So, do you believe that we can update or revise human nature?

    People are influenced by their environment? Gosh! What, like, even the environment they grow up in? Wow...

    We agree that there is a complex interplay between nature and nurture. What is there to argue about?

    It would have been better had that been done much earlier on. I don't have much more to say on the subject, to be honest. I don't mean that badly; I just don't know what else can be said.
     
  3. acerimmer_165

    acerimmer_165 Supply Officer

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    I think it's quite ridiculous that Kryten, a mechanoid, should be affected by laughing gas. While I don't normally care for tedious scientific plot holes, which RD has in abundance (not a criticism, it's not a documentary), this made the scene seem a bit artificial, ridiculous and carnivaly, reminiscent of much of the humour of series VIII. The only thing that was missing was the vending machine laughing hysterically in the background - hell, why not Taiwan Tony?

    However, I did not notice that Pree may have taken the anaesthetic and took the fact that there wasn't any at face value - maybe this should have been elaborated upon as it is an interesting point that would have added to Pree's sinister portrayal. Or maybe it was only me that didn't notice it, as it seems quite apparent in retrospect.

    Overall, after a rewatch, I felt the episode was decent, not as good as Trojan which wouldn't have been out of place in earlier series', but watchable nonetheless, massively redeemed by some great, even classic scenes.
     
  4. blaggard

    blaggard First Technician

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    Kryten was also affected by the lithium carbonate in Back to Reality, so at least the precedent was set some time ago. I mean, it does seem slightly incongruous that something that - presumably - doesn't need to breathe is affected by gas in this way, but at least it didn't come entirely out of nowwhere.
     
  5. Slainmonkey

    Slainmonkey Deck Sergeant

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    Then Lister is lucky that Kryten pulled the right tooth
     
  6. Mardroid

    Mardroid Console Officer

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    It's been established in previous series that Kryten is affected by certain chemicals in much the same way as humans. The Despair squid ink for example. And the antidote.

    I thought that a bit of a stretch too, but... well, it's such a good episode. It is mentioned in DNA that his brain is part organic, so maybe that's the explanation.
     
  7. simulant37

    simulant37 Science Officer

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    God almighty those bits were terrible!! Who on earth would programme a medi-bot to have a comedy Peter Lorre style spooky voice?

    Come to think of it, why would Lister ask a medi-bot for parental advice & why would a medi-bot have such knowledge in its databanks?

    This is my favourite medi-bot

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CE_Io-CIFmA
     
  8. Fairfax

    Fairfax Catering Officer

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    I agree that it felt reminiscent of Series VIII and that is one of the big issues that I have with the new series so far. It feels like Series VII serious dramatic concepts (Pree, Howard etc.) are randomly alternating with Series VIII wacky, zany humour (the phone, medi-bots, vending machines, laughing gas, crew dancing after they survive). I think the zany scenes really do detract from the show a great deal.

    Before the series started quite a few people talked about it going back to a Series V vibe or something like that but I don`t think that`s been evident at all. In terms of tone I think it`s only really reminiscent of VII and VIII which makes sense as Doug was Rob-less for those series too.
     
  9. Slainmonkey

    Slainmonkey Deck Sergeant

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    Entangled looks like it may be more Series V like......having said that I will agree that it hasn't seemed so much like earlier series' so far.....then again the general sounds of what's been said, the it's supposed to be uphill from here. Some dramatic elements would be fine if it was done well and remained complemented the tone of the rest of the episode.
     
  10. Fairfax

    Fairfax Catering Officer

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    Are we to assume that this post was a joke? About 4 posters have now said that this discussion should either have moved to the Garpage Pod or should end altogether. What does it have to do with Fathers and Suns?
     
  11. simulant37

    simulant37 Science Officer

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    Just ignore it. No one is forcing you to read this stuff. . .are they? :?:x:roll:
     
  12. Bluey

    Bluey Science Officer

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    I think the next person to continue this argument should do so in a new thread in the Garbage Pod and just leave a link to it in this thread.
     
  13. simulant37

    simulant37 Science Officer

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    Exactly! 8)
     
  14. Navior

    Navior Skutter

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    I thought it was a good episode, but not as good as "Trojan". I have a full review on my blog.
     
  15. Seb

    Seb Captain Staff Member

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    OK, I'm going to say it: that discussion should be moved to the Garbage Pod. Please.

    Thanks.
     
  16. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    I was glad to see that Doug Naylor re-emerged on twitter today to address recent criticism of Red Dwarf.

    I would, however, have been happier if he'd addressed the criticism of fans over things contained in this episode instead of arguing with a troll about the merits of the show in general.

    Ho-hum.
     
  17. Ally1990

    Ally1990 First Technician

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    Aye, I saw that on Twitter. Loved Doug's comeback.

    Also on Twitter was the combined ratings of Trojan, the 9:00, 10:00, & 11:40 - 2.69 million. Bloody good for a digital channel.

    Seen Fathers for a third time today. Doesn't grow on you as much as Trojan but for me, at least, it's gotten easier to watch. I hardly notice the, ahem 'other plot'.
     
  18. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    Can't say that I did. If he has to bite at trolls then using sales figures and ratings isn't really the best way to go about validating the show's quality. I think he'd have done better to stick to critical reception e.g. the shows Emmy award, etc in this instance.
     
  19. simulant37

    simulant37 Science Officer

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    So he didn't address recent criticism of Red Dwarf then!! :x
     
  20. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    That was my point, yes. Thanks for restating it for the more literally minded reader.
     

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