Episode 3 - Lemons.

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by KingR76, Oct 13, 2012.

  1. KingR76

    KingR76 Deck Sergeant

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    It was the very first thing we saw, Lister singing it and just smacked of Series 1 in such a fantastic way, kind of disappointed me when we didnt see it on Thursday night.
     
  2. MacabreMagpie

    MacabreMagpie Catering Officer

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    Well, that's why fan opinion will always be so different on certain episodes.... I liked series 2, with the exception of Stasis Leak and the aforementioned Thanks For The Memory. I felt the other episodes were all MUCH stronger. But that's just me.
     
  3. RedDwarffan2982

    RedDwarffan2982 First Technician

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    I know what you mean, in Fathers and Suns there was a short hilarious scene that was cut, just after Lister storms out of the argument with himself, not sure if I would be allowed to detail it, but it just involved Lister moaning as he passes Rimmer
     
  4. simulant37

    simulant37 Science Officer

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    Agreement.
     
  5. Bawsy74

    Bawsy74 Skutter

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    A really good episode I thought. Can't understand why there are so many complaints about the actor playing Jesus. He was fantastic - his accent, his slight frame, his shortness (not what you'd expect from such a big figure - but that's the point!), his "I'm dizzied" expression regarding the bag, his rant on the 10 C's...

    A great season so far, and is certainly shaping to be one of my faves. This IS red dwarf!!!
     
  6. MacabreMagpie

    MacabreMagpie Catering Officer

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    I think a lot of people missed the point that he was meant to be annoying. In which case blame the writing, not the actor. Feel sorry for the guy!
     
  7. krissie21

    krissie21 Skutter

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    I didn't say don't ask why people liked it? :?

    Notice I said to the extent that's going on, that's what I meant, Iv read posts here saying things like 'can people stop saying lemons was the best episode it was the worst so far' (not from you by the way) to me that comes across as telling someone I'm right your wrong, that's what I meant.

    And yes it works both ways of course! I mean I'd never say "Im shocked and astonished someone hated that so can people stop saying it was the worst episode" because we all have different opinions on comedy especially, hence subjective...again :-)
     
  8. DAN_JMC

    DAN_JMC Catering Officer

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    well yeah, I wouldn't tell anyone to stop saying they liked it, I realise now you're talking about a general reaction and not me specifially.I guess it's weird how this episode has divided people so much!
     
  9. DAN_JMC

    DAN_JMC Catering Officer

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    Well look we know comedy is subjective and no one can prove something is or isn't funny. However, take a show like Extras where the main character ends up playing a character in a show. Some people love the character even though he gets laughs from a bad wig, a catchphase and a funny voice and accent. It's made clear in Extras that the show within the show is terrible cheap comedy but people are responding to the gimmick. Or lets take terrible comedy films that rely on childish gross out gags, or American Pie type films (there are worse films in that genre too, and that kind of comedy CAN be done well) but the point is, don't we all look at particular comedies and think they are not funny in our opinion and think they are getting laughs because of some gimmick or something? We can't prove we're right because it'sopinion, but I'm just saying I can't think of anything funny about Lemons apart from an intital premise which then wasn't acted out well. It's like saying "let's have Beethoven travelling in time and doing a rap" that might sound like a funny idea but it still needs to be handled in a funny way. Not saying everyone is just laughing at a gag because of the premise, but that's the only way that I personally can explain people liking it. The only thing that makes sense to ME. I mean there were a few mildly funny bits but nothing great.

    The only other thing is people love red dwarf so much, because if I wasn't a fan of the best days of the show, I wouldn't be massively interested in the show the way it is now. Trojan did have a great gag that killed me and was good overall, Fathers and Suns almost as good. But Red Dwarf used to be the BEST comedy around. Now there's several shows I think are funnier and they're not even that great. And I mean shows that are on right now in this 6 weeks of Red Dwarf.

    Though, I'm amazed at how people don't rate some of the classic shows very much at all, so maybe it's not people loving all Red Dwarf, they just love different dwarf to me and i'm weird haha. Still don't understand why anyone would think Lemons was the best episode even of this series, but I'm not telling anyone they're wrong.

    If the next episode is as good as Trojan though, I'll be very happy.
     
  10. Seymour_Clufley

    Seymour_Clufley First Technician

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    I've just watched Lemons for the second time.

    I still think it's a good episode - probably equal to Trojan - though what I liked and disliked about it on the first view came out a bit more this time.

    Cat's line "he's getting closer" really made me laugh, as did the stuff about Lister's spleen, and the "gap year" comment. I liked the idea of flatpack sci-fi machinery that the buyer has to construct himself.

    I also thought the Indian marketplace set was perfectly good. It's a sitcom; you shouldn't expect Indiana Jones (or ask for it, because it would destroy the paradigm).

    As other people have said, Rimmer's changed his tune about Shakespeare, which seems a bit unlikely for the character. He may be a feeble excuse of a man, and he may believe in civilisation for bad reasons, but Rimmer has always believed in civilisation - for him to suddenly turn against Shakespeare doesn't ring true; he would want to show his appreciation even if he was just posturing. Also, Lister's recommending of Shakespeare was like that of an idiot, not the Lister of old who would actually have some interest in the substance of the plays, not just the "phrases". He's a slob, and badly educated, but he is not a cretin who gets wowed by "phrases". (This is indicative, I think, of Naylor's lack of interest in depth. Back in S5, Lister would have poured scorn on anyone who was so easily impressed/tricked.)

    I concur with some other people's complaints about the episode: the walk to India was a bit much, the Mackem Jesus was silly and the actor irritating (possibly mis-cast).

    But overall I did enjoy the episode and think it of the quality of series VI. We're still not at series V standard, but it's a step above VII/VIII.

    The rest of my remarks I will frame as responses to comments from A1ph4riu5...


    That's a really good point. I had been aware of it in the back of my mind, but not consciously.

    I agree completely. It surprises me that most people only complained about the Taiwan Tony stuff in Fathers & Suns. I consider it an abysmal episode. Even the final "joke" was awful, and it seemed to sum up the episode for me: a damp squib that had really struggled to produce jokes. (Except for the laughing gas scene, which I did find hilarious.)

    Yes but "edgy humour" is often just offence for its own sake, or sixth form debate ideas disguised as jokes, and I would say that's what the Ten Commandments stuff was (the latter, not the former).

    I hate it when people point out contradictions in religious texts, as if by doing so they have disproven the entire religion.

    Then there was his "it's almost as if... to keep primitive people in check!" which was completely unbelievable dialogue for a man from the primitive time being referred to. And also... would anyone fancy the challenge of keeping primitive people in check without a religion? I wouldn't! And furthermore, are we really so much more advanced nowadays? Does, for example, science make it easier to convince people not to steal/commit adultery/murder? I have my doubts.

    Finally, his reference to "the rights of women and children". I'm not against human rights, but as soon as he used the word "rights", I thought it had gone from a sitcom to a crude transposing of 21st century values onto the 1st century. Did anyone speak of "rights" in 26 AD, or any age remotely close to it? (According to Wikipedia, the concept began with Magna Carta in 1215 AD.)

    Well, once I knew who the guest character was going to be, I did think "I hope nobody calls Doug Naylor 'brave' for doing this". Mocking Christianity seems to be practically a necessity for the modern comic, whereas few mock Islam because they don't want a fatwa slammed on them. Brave would be having the Dwarfers meet a 7th century warlord, slave-driver and paedophile and have him reading a history book which revealed that his religion had not been mis-used in the centuries after his death, but rather carried on exactly as he intended. That would be edgy.

    Which reminds me... is it really fair to say that the history of Christianity is one of war? I don't think so. I know the claim was countered a bit by Lister at the end, but still the implication was that, aside from making some people "happy", Christianity was a negative force, rather than a civilising one.

    Rimmer's exact phrase is: "how many wars Christianity's caused". I'm sorry to say it, but we are pussyfooting around the issue, and have been for years: what about all the wars Islam has caused? Why are we still beating ourselves up about Christianity and completely ignoring Islam, which has been a far more aggressive force. Why? Because we get a kick from being "edgy", but rather dislike the idea of a violent comeback. So we keep slagging off Christianity, long after the struggle against it was won, and tell ourselves we're being "edgy".

    For all that, I still think Lemons is a good episode. If JMC2000 et al can overlook their bugbears in Fathers and Suns and embrace it, then I can probably overlook the Christianity stuff in Lemons and embrace it. :-)
     
  11. DAN_JMC

    DAN_JMC Catering Officer

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    I agree Christianity is an easy target these days,and no one would dare touch islam with a ten foot pole. But then again Britain is supposed to be a christian country so we can make fun of ourselves and get away with it. Would WE be outraged if a islamic country made christian mocking shows?

    The kennedy assasination stuff in tikka to ride was more genuinely controversial than making fun of christianity
     
  12. Seymour_Clufley

    Seymour_Clufley First Technician

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    I would say it was more pointlessly offensive than controversial, but I take the point and agree with the rest of your post. I just wonder if, with Islam becoming a vastly greater presence in Britain in the coming decades, we will ever reach a point where sitcoms treat Islam in the way they have treated Christianity for the last 40 years. I mean, of course Britain is still a Christian country, officially, but it's also a multicultural country, so perhaps it would be healthy for us to poke some fun at Islam? The alternative is that we continually eviscerate Christianity whilst allowing Islam a free ride.
     
  13. Mardroid

    Mardroid Console Officer

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    Different all right! You just listed my two favourite episodes of Series 2!

    Oh, and Britain is not a Christian country any more. But yes, we've a history of Christianity in this county or at least people using Christianity to further their own selfish aims, a rather shocking contradiction.
     
  14. betelgeuse

    betelgeuse Catering Officer

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    the same could be said of the Red Dwarf american pilot! :P
     
  15. Slainmonkey

    Slainmonkey Deck Sergeant

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    I would say Pete Part 2 was the lowest point, dinosaur poo and Kryten's pet robot penis Archie.
     
  16. DAN_JMC

    DAN_JMC Catering Officer

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    Our sense of morality is still very much derived from Christianity even amongst people who don't believe in God, which i think means the spirit of Christianity is still there somewhat - things would be better if it was more present in society. Out holidays and such still tend to be linked to christianity, and the Church of England is a christian church.

    Though bad things have come from pretty much all religions, they also have much good and Christianity when not distorted by people, is a positive thing. Don't know why we always blame the religion and not the twats who misuse it.
     
  17. Angelic_Storm

    Angelic_Storm Catering Officer

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    Thank you, I've been trying to erase those things from my memory ever since I first saw them... :P

    I do the think that the depths sunk to during the worst moments of Series VIII, have yet to be reached by anything in Series X. Sure, there have been a couple of real cringe inducing moments, but certainly not as bad as the worst ones from that series.

    About Christianity, well... that has been targeted a few times during the series' lifetime, beginning of course with "Waiting For God" from Series I. As for the episode itself, I do agree with some of the negative issues raised about it (such as the "walk to India" idea, and the way that was presented), but I see them as niggling flaws in the episode, rather than anything that's capable of totally ruining it. There's more that I like about the episode than what I don't like, certainly!
     
  18. ListersSocks

    ListersSocks Skutter

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    Have to say that I thought 'Lemons' was worse that pretty much everything outside of Series 8 and Back To Earth. A few half decent moments couldn't save it from being a real stinker of an episode. Very little about it worked for me. Shakespeare, the rejuvination shower, the 'food', Jesus and the bags and the operation. It was unfunny nonsense.

    The first couple of episodes were decent. Both had great moments. Both made me laugh. Not classic, by any means, but more than watchable. But 'Lemons'? Very disappointing, and not an episode I'll rush to watch again in the future.

    Hopefully next week will put the series back on track. Still great to see the boys from the dwarf back again.
     
  19. misterh

    misterh Third Technician

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    I love series two and especially 'thanks for the memory'
     
  20. TouchT1701

    TouchT1701 Third Technician

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    You know, it's actually quite heartening to see people post most loved & hated episodes and see that there is somewhat equal distribution of hate and love; meaning what some love, some hate. There is something for everybody.
    Unfortunately, not having watched the entire Red Dwarf catalogue in awhile, I am feeling like a Red Dwarf marathon is in my future soon to refresh my memory.
    I know that there are episodes that I don't like as much, and ones I like quite a bit, like the one where Rimmer is infected, but I just don't have ones that irritate me too much to hate. To be honest, the only one that comes to mind that I didn't like so much is the JFK one, but that might be because it was the one I always seemed to catch on repeats.:twisted:
    So, people love Lemons, people hate Lemons... and probably some, like me, are just kind of indifferent to it(is that worse?).
     

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