Episode 3 - Lemons.

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by KingR76, Oct 13, 2012.

  1. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    I think you're right but Anti does point to a potential missed opportunity for Lister and Jesus to have had a little heart to heart.

    I guess part of the problem is that new viewers might have been confused by Lister talking about being a deity to the Cats on the grounds that Waiting for God aside I don't think that the Cat race or the Cloister stuff has ever been mentioned again. Also Rob and Doug seem to think negatively of Waiting for God in general.

    I agree though it would have been a slightly more satisfying direction that Lister discovering that not all famous people were great and so feeling better about himself.
     
  2. Seymour_Clufley

    Seymour_Clufley First Technician

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    To answer JMC2000's post, and in particular his question as to whether I am biased against Islam...

    Islam is a barbaric religion. I don't want it in my country. I know it's here, and there's not much I can do about it, etc. but I wish it (and that has to translate to its believers) had never been allowed in. It is incompatible with Western civilisation.

    Multiculturalism is a recipe for division because it says, in not so many words, that people do not need to integrate. This isn't such a big deal with benign cultures (Hinduism etc.) but with an aggressive culture like Islam, it certainly is a problem. There is evidence of this everywhere, from the Muslim enclaves to the Asian (Muslim) paedophile rings (which PC stopped the police from investigating) to the intimidation by Muslims of non-Muslims in prison. This is a deep division in British society - the old divisions of Protestant/Catholic, and even Left/Right, seem positively minuscule in the light of Muslim/Christian+Atheist.

    So I am biased against Islam, in the sense that I don't like it and don't trust it. I think it is a hateful, intolerant, aggressive religion that has stultified entire countries for centuries. Look at any Islamic country and tell me you would like to live there. Look at any Islamic ghetto in Britain and tell me you'd like to live there. Look at any Islamic group in Britain and tell me you'd like them to be in charge of the country - yet the number of Muslims is growing rapidly.

    People often talk about Islam being the cradle of civilisation etc. but there is a lot of evidence that Islam was never progressive (in any sense of the word) except that it was obsessed with expanding itself, conquering peoples with a brutality that dwarfs anything the British Empire did, even though we're supposed to be ashamed of the Empire and somehow in awe of Islam as a peaceful, tolerant, forward-thinking creed. The doublethink is astonishing. A good example of this is the deafening silence of Western feminists regarding the treatment that Islam metes out to women wherever it has dominance. Even where Islam is not dominant, Muslim men can be extremely aggressive towards women.

    According to the ONS, 50% of Muslim men and 75% of Muslim women in Britain are on the dole! Yet these people are only doing what Islam tells them to do: by living off the work of infidels, they are enacting an informal jizya.

    I realise of course that few Muslims are actually dangerous or hateful people, but the question is with whom they would side in the event that taking sides became necessary? Would they side with the secular infidel, or with the extremist Muslims? History has some sobering examples of moderates being cowed by extremists when the chips are down.

    Of course it is uncertain whether mocking Islam (in sitcoms or elsewhere) would help Muslims to integrate into Britain. But it does us - moderns and freedom-loving progressives - no favours to respect Islam. We are prostrating ourselves before a barbaric, murderous death-cult that has never offered the world anything but violence and backwardness.

    It is true that Breivik called himself a Christian crusader. The distinction here is that what he did was absolutely un-Christian. He did not turn the other cheek, or love his neighbour etc. He murdered them. That is counter to Christian teachings. However, murder is not counter to Islamic teachings if it is in the service of jihad.

    It's also true that Islam is not the only cause of terror in the modern world. But it is the main one. Be honest. When you first heard about Breivik's massacre, did you suspect it would be a "Christian" crusader, or a Muslim one?

    Finally, to answer Simulant37's point that a more prevalent Christianity would marginalise other cultures. Those other cultures came to a Christian country. If they feel marginalised, that is their problem. It should not be used as a stick to beat the majority with, or to strip them of their heritage - which is certainly a Christian heritage. And I say that as a non-believer. I don't want mosques or whatever. They have nothing to do with me, my culture, my ancestors, my friends etc. I like Christianity. It's what I know. I am familiar and comfortable with it, its imagery, its teachings and so on. Anything which threatens that, or asks for it to be down-graded or set aside, should never have been allowed into this country in the first place.

    Nobody says that Iran should be multicultural. Or Iraq. Or the Yemen. Or even India, China or Japan. Why is it that it's only (formerly) Christian countries which are expected to be multicultural and set aside their identities in order not to marginalise "other peoples"?
     
  3. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    Neither. I thought it would be a deranged lunatic with a gun. Which it was.

    And I really think it's time that this whole issue was dropped for the good of all concerned. It's moved far, far away from the subject matter of the topic to the extent that this thread and the last one are beginning to resemble a Youtube video's comments page with slightly better grammar!

    I think we have all heard enough from each other over the course of the past two episodes to know each others points of view and to know that they are strong enough not to be shifted by constant back and forth.

    I don't come to a Red Dwarf forum to see links to rape blogs and I don't think many others do either. So again, can we just drop it or take it to the garbage pod and play "who has got the worst religion" there? It's not like this discussion has anything to do with the episode 'Lemons' anyway.
     
  4. Seymour_Clufley

    Seymour_Clufley First Technician

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    Immediately after writing the above, I went to the Telegraph and ran into this story, the freshest piece of evidence that Muslims, where they predominate, aren't terribly nice to infidels.
     
  5. Seymour_Clufley

    Seymour_Clufley First Technician

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    I agree, BedfordFalls, that we should probably give it a rest. I just wanted to respond to some points made by other people - ironically, for the sake of courtesy - though I understand it isn't a very pleasant subject!

    BTW, the debate (especially the F&S one) could have been moved to the Garbage Pod and I considered starting a thread there several times, but it always seemed like the debate was about to end, so there was little point starting it afresh.
     
  6. Slainmonkey

    Slainmonkey Deck Sergeant

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    In the one location shoot you can really see how cold it was there (being winter and all), Chris Barrie wearing the lightest clothes looks rather cold and miserable in that scene.
     
  7. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    The F&S debate was at least pertinent to the episode which did ask the viewer to consider attitudes to racial stereotypes. Lemons didn't ask people to get into a debate about who has the worst religion it just focused on the good and bad of a religion most familiar to its viewers (and probably the writer).

    I'm sure there is an existing discussion on religion already in the garbage pod if you want to continue there.

    In the meantime, I just noticed that Lister is to blame for the remote not having a battery, it's one of the things he tosses away when looking for something organic to test the shower with.

    Nice little detail that Doug snuck in there. I've noticed lots of little bits and pieces like this on re-watches of the first three episodes and it seems to demonstrate a lot more care being taken to explain even trivial things this series. Perhaps we have Andrew to thank for them, or maybe Doug just upped his detail in this series.
     
  8. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    im looking forward to episode 4 quite alot, not so much ep5 tbh
     
  9. Slainmonkey

    Slainmonkey Deck Sergeant

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    It depends on how episode 5 is handled honestly, the G&T set report kinda sounds as though it was one of the most positive.....time will really tell and they at G&T predicted that it will be a fan favourite. I look forward to Entangled as well because it really looks like the kind of Red Dwarf episode I'd been waiting to see for a very long time......I predict it will be by far the strongest so far. For me I've liked each episode better then the last so far Lemons being the most fun I've had in the new episodes (Trojan being somewhat overrated I feel) and I really hope to see that improving trend continued.
     
  10. bigtimedwarfer

    bigtimedwarfer Second Technician

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    I realise this is pedantic of me but this is OT. I don't want to read about future episodes until I've seen them, certainly not in a thread for another episode.
     
  11. Slainmonkey

    Slainmonkey Deck Sergeant

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    Well I'll be sure not to say anything about said episodes but I will continue to be more on topic for Lemons, infact in that response I made absolute care to make sure nothing spoilerly in the slightest was mentioned.
     
  12. bigtimedwarfer

    bigtimedwarfer Second Technician

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    I appreciate that thankyou. It's just that these conversations can progress quickly as I'm sure you'll agree.
     
  13. dodgebizkit

    dodgebizkit Deck Sergeant

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    All in all: Good episode, some good ideas, good jokes, well rounded in terms of all characters having a decent role. The few flaws do detract from being able to call it brilliant, but I think these are the negative points that I found about it:

    Not too polished, script feels rushed in places (some points not fully thought out or explained well) and could have done with a few people checking it and giving doug the fine tooth comb treatment before filming.

    The actor having the geordie accent would have been good in another role in another episode, but as a Jesusy-type past character, supposedly Eastern, it was a bit weird and hard to swallow.

    The fact that Jesus had had a hot curry on red dwarf was a little bit funny for a few minutes then you remember - He's just come from India where curry is a normal food - Would have been funnier if he had mused at how weird Icecream and Jelly is or something, or how funny that we eat chips, crisps and other things out of this mysterious bag product. A Christmas pudding would have been funny "Yeah we eat them to celebrate your birthday" would have gone down well I think. Wine jokes could have been made "Forget wine, mate, make us some lager".

    Jesus didn't blink twice at monitors on the ship or want to spread the word of this weird teleporty trip. This reminds me of an episode in the first series of Smallville that really put me off, where Lana's boyfriend is thrown across a barn and knocked out, and she doesn't bat an eyelid at that, or care about him, just ask "what do you want" calmly... A mix of bad writing, not thinking about it, bad direction, director not noticing the detail that the script overlooked, and bad acting, the actor surely would have atleast thought of these things and been a bit flabbagasted at the ordeal even if it wasn't scripted. If it was difficult to get this into it last minute, they could have atleast drawn attention to it and made it a funny thing that none of that was noticed. I don't know whether most people notice these kinds of things but I do.

    Despite the flaws that a picky hardcore fan may make, I think the average casual dave viewer that looks at the guide and goes"I like red dwarf, I'll watch that!" would probably notice about 0.0squared percent of that and therefore it would only be the extra attention to detail that would please us (though it would be nice of we have more of that in later episodes, after all, we are Doug's/Dave's customers too, we are the ones that buy the DVDs). I like the look and feel of the episode, the premise of it and I was entertained for the whole 30 minutes of it.
     
  14. Diet_coke

    Diet_coke Science Officer

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    Just seen ratings info on twitter..

    Daves three highest ever ratings are ALL red dwarf episodes. The first Airings..

    Trojan and Fathers and suns make up 2nd and 3rd all time best ratings for Dave with Back to earth part 1 top.

    looks like more Dwarf series will be on the way. :-D:-D
     
  15. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    im curious would anyone here consider lemons to be the best episode of red dwarf ever?
     
  16. dodgebizkit

    dodgebizkit Deck Sergeant

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    Someone made a comment that they thought that, or at least that it was in their top list.
     
  17. Slainmonkey

    Slainmonkey Deck Sergeant

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    I would consider it the best new episode so far, but it hardly hits the high notes amongst the show's best
     
  18. KingR76

    KingR76 Deck Sergeant

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    That would be me. (Unless of course someone else has said it as well)
     
  19. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    doug on twitter said some have said lemons is the best episode ever... now i can say lemons is a pretty good episode but best episode ever? really?
     
  20. Ally1990

    Ally1990 First Technician

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    Lemons best episode ever?

    Hmmm... only when I'm drunk.
     

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