Episode 4 - Entangled

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by dodgebizkit, Oct 24, 2012.

  1. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    they were not gelfs though they were garbage munchers aka beggs , i mean yeah there were similarities but overall the only way you can be bothered by it is if you are looking for problems

    similarities
    the setup and camera angle,
    the beggs live in huts like the gelfs,
    kryten translating for them

    apart from that the belfs are completely different and seem to be more brutal and eat anything
     
  2. Fairfax

    Fairfax Catering Officer

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    Come on...

    Are you saying that trying to trade their crap for their freedom wasn`t a similarity to Emohawk?
    Or that Rimmer`s situation here wasn`t similar to Lister`s in Emohawk?

    If that doesn`t bother fans or they like those similarities to previous series then I can understand it but there`s no point in denying they exist.

    Anyway, the issue of whether there are too many old jokes being used in RDX was discussed by the estimable John Hoare on G&T last week so it`s not like it`s only one person talking about this.

    Using the `Did it work?` `No` joke from the previous series can`t be denied also.
     
  3. Slainmonkey

    Slainmonkey Deck Sergeant

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    The BEGG's I liked, I mean Emohawk hinted at the idea that there was many different tribes of Gelf's but ever since we just kept seeing more Kinitawowi. The BEGG's while hairy like them seem to have a different type of personality to the Kinitawowi who Kryten describes as a less nasty Gelf, the Kinitawowi being more like an African tribe and have a sense of pride to their culture....what you see is what you get.

    The BEGG's seem far more dishonest, they like to play on the assumptions that they are stupider then what they really are in order to take advantage of others in the way they did with Lister. They might not seem as outwardly aggressive then some of the other tribes mentions in Emohawk (though they still eat people) but are more like hustlers in their over all mentality. They clearly have a different social structure.
     
  4. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    the trading aspect yeah, but it wasn't trading it was gambling and the beggs were basicly taking what they wanted

    as i said it only bothers you if you are looking for it, there are similaritys with queeg this series, the luck virus ect ect and if you are looking for it you will find it

    he gave that episode a good review didn't he?

    id imagine doug doesn't remember every gag he has ever done
     
  5. Fairfax

    Fairfax Catering Officer

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    Trading the spoon. It wasn`t gambling.


    Yes, but the fact that maybe too many jokes are being recycled was a negative. Which is the point.

    If these things don`t bother you then that`s cool but don`t dismiss other people`s opinions as vapid just because you don`t agree with them.
     
  6. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    trying to trick them by trading a spoon for starbug and rimmer and the beggs didn't fall for it and they still tried to win out of it by saying they could win back starbug and rimmer but if they lost ect ect, which showed them to be more clever then the crew thought

    again there is a difference

    there are some gags that have been done before there is no denying that but the beggs stuff is quite different and if you are looking to hard at that scene and seeing its just a repeat of the gelfs then you might have to stop straining your eyes trying to find these things because while there may be some more noticable obvious gags that have been done before this series the beggs stuff sure isn't one

    its like the Psirens and pleasure gelfs they both appear a certain way to people that are not there true forms and i heard people say about the similarities, but they are clearly different and have different motives but if you wanted you could just say pft seen it before bad versions of the pleasure gelfs ppfft

    we all want new and fresh stuff this series but paranoia can drive us to nitpik
     
  7. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    Nor do I to be honest. Where did this joke supposedly occur in series 8?
     
  8. RobeH56

    RobeH56 Third Technician

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    I've still not quite recovered from Taiwan Tony, but so glad the series is on an upswing.
     
  9. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    yeah i can't remember this joke either :shock:
     
  10. Fairfax

    Fairfax Catering Officer

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    Has anybody said that it was in Series VIII? Must have been a typo if it was me.

    Bodyswap.
     
  11. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    Ah, I know what you're talking about now but I think Talkie is right, you're really looking for faults if that's your idea of reusing an old joke and, to be honest, I don't agree that its the same joke.

    While the two have a structurally similar punchline they are funny for entirely different reasons. This isn't Doug recyling the Batman/Spiderman suit material...and I'm not sure why you thought it was similar to that lazy repetition.

    In Bodyswap the joke is that Kryten is going to do something dangerous but is validating it based on having done it before, the joke being that its revealed that his previous effort was unsuccessful.

    In Entangled the joke is that that Kryten paints a picture of an extraordinarily, long winded, complicated scientic experiment only to dismiss it with a snappy reply. It's a joke that's more akin to Listers "Right, have you got any Lemons" than what we see in Bodyswap. It also plays on the humour that all of those experiments in wrongness ultimately only produced something that didn't work.

    Two very different jokes despite the similar use of language in the punchline.
     
  12. karnie

    karnie Supply Officer

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    When Irene was telling him which button to press, she basically rattled off every one except one. The one she DIDN'T say was the one he pressed. Until the end, when the irony of the situation made him press the one she said.
     
  13. Fairfax

    Fairfax Catering Officer

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    I didn`t compare it to the episode that you mentioned so not sure why you are bringing that up. I also haven`t used the word `lazy` with reference to the similarity with older jokes. I think that Doug`s tendency to rush the plot can be lazy and that was certainly evident in this episode in terms of the choking and coincidence. It`s something that, as I`ve said before, Andrew Ellard has mentioned before (not using the word lazy obviously).

    I don`t want to get into a big thing about specific things being repeated in episodes because it could go on all day. The main issue is though that since the series started the criticism that I have seen from many non-Dwarf comedy fans has been that the show is very predictable. That`s how I feel while watching as, without trying to overthink things, the punchlines to jokes are clear well before they are delivered. The comments that I`ve seen from the non-Dwarf fans about the last couple of episodes have been `ok but not funny`.

    It`s obviously a tough one for Doug though as when he does new stuff like Taiwan Tony it is knocked for being `not-Dwarfy`. When he does the old stuff it is knocked as well.
     
  14. karnie

    karnie Supply Officer

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    I was pretty 'meh' about the episode, but I saw it late last night after a long day, so I'm going to reserve judgement until a second or third viewing. I do find it a little off-putting how nonchalant the crew seems to be over people dying; first Rimmer's own brother, now an actual female that can repopulate the human race.
     
  15. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    dougs comedy is more silly then it used to be, i think maybe rob grants role help keep the sillyness at bay
     
  16. Fairfax

    Fairfax Catering Officer

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    I think there was always silliness there but during Rob`s time the silliness was often tied to the plot. I watched Quarantine today, for example, and there is lots of stupidity but it is all relevant. Some of the stuff in Doug`s Dwarf hasn`t been.
     
  17. Smegged

    Smegged First Technician

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    A tremendously enjoyed this one. A lot of fun interplay between the cast members - the Rimmer/Lister dynamic, the Cat/Kryten bits...Cat probably owned some of the best zingers in the episode, although Kryten's monologue explaining the "Erra" facility had me in stitches. I'll be remembering "fallacious reasoning" for a good while.

    In the first quantum-entangled bit, I also loved the reveal of the book that the Cat was holding. Priceless.
     
  18. dodgebizkit

    dodgebizkit Deck Sergeant

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    And add the down to earth side of the characters... Or down to dwarf, since earth is far far away
     
  19. mccollough

    mccollough First Technician

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    Listers emotional ark in BTE was far from silly in my opinion...
     
  20. MacabreMagpie

    MacabreMagpie Catering Officer

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    Yeah, I would personally say that Doug has been responsible for the more emotionally mature writing on Red Dwarf.

    For example his solo novel, Last Human, which is my favourite of the two solo attempts. It's the more 'dramatic' of all four novels and series 7 was also the least silly of all series.
     

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