Episode 4 - Entangled

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by dodgebizkit, Oct 24, 2012.

  1. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    although how fast they came to terms with how they were just a tv show is quite silly, its very much a lets get to the point.. does it make sense? well no, but im trying to tell a story here

    then there was the rimmer talking about Katerina Bartikovsky while she was behind him which was abit silly

    its very much like my view of BTE all together it didn't know if it was trying to be an emotional story or a spoof :shock:
     
  2. Dsnow_con

    Dsnow_con Third Technician

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    Well, like all the episodes this series thus far, this one was a mixed bag. Some good gags, some bad ones. I enjoyed the first half of the episode quite a bit, but the scene with the BEGGs (why not just call them GELFs?) was weak and seemed rushed. Same with the Dr. E scenes, the blonde bimbo thing was kinda lame and not particularly interesting or funny.

    Something that really jumped out at me was contradicting the established fact that Rimmer has a light bee. Normally I have absolutely no problem with all the plot holes and contradictions in the show- it is a comedy after all and the payoff is usually worth it (why would Lister head down to the planet by himself and not tell anyone? Ah, so he could lose Rimmer in a poker game. Good stuff). But in this case it was so unnecessary. The same gag (Lister hoping it was Kochanski in stasis, only to revealed to be a chimp) could have been done with Rimmer working the control panel of a status pod, a door opens, and out comes the chimp. Seems like a minor thing but it just strikes me as being rather poorly thought out.

    Back on the positive side, I enjoyed the mess with Lister’s giant donair (predictable as it was) and Cat had some great moments in this episode. All in all it seemed on par for the series- a decent concept and story, some good laughs, but unfortunately some notable flaws.
     
  3. JCjunkstar

    JCjunkstar Second Technician

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    I thought this was the best episode so far in terms of the actors seeming totally at home with the characters again, and the more banter style of snappy dialogue and increased one liners and requirements for comedy timing were strengths. Like most episodes so far I have found the laugh audio too loud in terms of the mix, that it sometimes gets in the way of the dialogue. I also think there has been too much exposition and explaining of what's occurring when it is obvious what's going on.

    In every episode there appears to be a poorly spoken line from Robert, last night was no exception where he mis pronounced something in the first half. I can check what it was, but surely these are basic things to re shoot to get perfect. It's good to see the old music and the references to previous elements from old series, but as a fan of series 7&8 , this series in some ways is more similar in format and style to 1-6 but not as well scripted, rehearsed, shot and executed as 7&8 so it's weirdly in its own space for me.

    This is not a bad thing however, I generally like it but more on a chuckle along nostalgia way, as many have said, when the other episodes come on afterwards, you can really see feel and grasp the huge difference in what the show was and what it is now.

    I can either accept what it is and enjoy it, or get hung up on the countless issues, continuity problems, bad delivery, weak gags, too many plots etc. still reserving judgement.

    Here's my scores:
    Bear in mind I give eps like back to reality, marooned, white hole etc 10/10.

    Trojan - 5/10
    Fathers and suns - 8/10
    Lemons - 3/10
    Entangled - 6/10
     
  4. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    Taiwan Tony wasn't knocked for being "non Dwarfy". I'm not quite sure how you came to that conclusion.

    And I know that you didn't specifically compare this to the Batman/Superman suit joke that I mentioned. You implied that the joke was merely lazily repeating the exact same joke from a different episode. I gave you the Batman/superman suit example as an example of where this would have been a fair comment. The jokes from Entangled and Bodyswap was not the same type of thing at all even if they had similar phrasing, hence, I suspect why you are the only one who has commented on it.

    Again, how were they nonchalant? Both reacted with rather sickened expressions to the demise of someone they hadn't yet known long enough to form any kind of long term bond with. You saw approximately five seconds of their reaction to this and the only joke was a piece of gallows humour from Lister that was hardly the equivalent of shrugging his shoulders and suggesting they go to the disco!
     
  5. Fairfax

    Fairfax Catering Officer

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    Yes, it was. It was knocked for other things as well of course but it was knocked for that too and other things have been as well like the Rimmer and Howard freezing thing in Trojan.

    This is something that many, many people have commented on. I think you could take the trouble to respect other people`s opinions a little more.
     
  6. Smegged

    Smegged First Technician

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    To the critique of Rimmer and Lister's reaction to the demise of Irene...

    They've kind of been everywhere and seen everything. Picture Rimmer's reaction to Legion proclaiming that they would remain with him until the day they died - no panic, no alarm, just a resigned "notch on the belt" in terms of how many people they have met who wanted to kill them.

    To quote Lister - he's played pool with planets, he's been to parallel universes, he's given birth to twins, hell, he's even eaten an edible pot noodle.

    They've single-handedly been responsible for killing simulants aplenty, holograms (Katerina in BTE, leaps to mind), Psirens and other assorted creatures. Rimmer's one thought while his brother lay dying in front of him was to rub in his face a gleeful lie.

    It's perfectly in tune with their characters to shrug off something as dreadful as what happened to Irene with a bit of dry humor, in my opinion.
     
  7. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    Wrong. The mention of racism in general was criticised for being "un-Dwarfy". Taiwan Tony was criticized for being an awful, potentially offensive artifact of 1970's comedy. That was the whole debate, it didn't belong in ANY comedy in 2012, not just Dwarf, even the people who weren't offended by it argued to that effect. Saying that it was critised for being "un-Dwarfy" trivialises what that whole debate was about.

    I know they have, hence why I'm arguing once again that I think they are wrong to do so. It's called having a discussion.
    Its nothing to do with "respecting opinions", I'm asking them to quantify why they have those opinions, unfounded as they appear to be, and look a little harder at what actually went on on the screen which doesn't necessarily suggest what they think it does. I suspect what many people are doing here is projecting. They're uncomfortable about themselves as viewers being asked to laugh off the death of a new character so quickly and projecting this onto the crew, when in reality there's no evidence whatsoever that the Dwarfers took a casual attitude to her death. For all we know they had a full Space Corps funeral and Rimmer spent the next two weeks sobbing in a cupboard.

    Gallows humour is an well known coping mechanism. It isn't an indication that people don't care.
     
  8. Diet_coke

    Diet_coke Science Officer

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    I think I do have a new favourite lister quote from last night

    "I haven't got time to waste tw*ttin about with this"

    This series has definately got some classic one liners all the way through it. the sorta lines you quote in the pub with ur other red dwarf liking pal :-)
     
  9. Fairfax

    Fairfax Catering Officer

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    Jeez. Are you seriously trying to tell me that you`ve read every post and tweet made on every website about this series and so you know for certain that this subject hasn`t been mentioned? I KNOW that people claimed the subject of racism was `un-Dwarfy`. I also KNOW that there were several posts made by various people about how the character of Taiwan Tony was also `un-Dwarfy`. If you didn`t read them then that`s fine but don`t deny things that are facts.

    When you try to tell viewers how they are feeling then it does show a lack of respect for their opinions and a, `I`m right, you`re wrong` attitude. `Unfounded as they appear to be`... You don`t have any unfounded opinions I presume?
     
  10. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    from what i can tell he was attempting to make a valid reason for it, but you seem to be insulted by someone sticking up for the scene in some way, i think what you should really be saying is i don't care about excuses i just don't like that scene and never will as it is a pile of smeg and an insult to the early shows
     
  11. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    Whereas you're so intent on scrambling to cover your poorly made point that you aren't even reading the single post you needed to.
    It's quite obvious that I'm referring to the HUGE wave of criticism Taiwan Tony received and, as I've pointed out, stating that this was due to him being "un-dwarfy" massively trivialises what those complaints were focused on. It doesn't really matter whether or not somebody may or may not have remarked otherwise somewhere in the sea of complaints that the character received for far more important critical reasons.

    Your point was that when "Doug does new stuff like Taiwan Tony he is knocked for being non-Dwarfy". That's at best massively missing the point about why people were railing on Doug for the character, or willfully ignoring it at worst.

    Hence why I didn't "try to tell viewers how they are feeling" I openly asked them to elucidate the reasons behind these opinions and gave my own reading of why I disagreed with those opinions and why I think people might be having them (since opinions are rarely baseless inherently held beliefs but are always motivated by something external). That's called arguing a point and asking for a response.
    I'm not sure why you felt the need to respond on their behalf, however...perhaps because you're making such a poor job of defending your other point?
     
  12. Fairfax

    Fairfax Catering Officer

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    Not at all. He can obviously say why he thought the scene worked and what his interpretation was. Not a problem with that.

    But to tell other people what they were feeling when they were watching it and why they didn`t like it is pushing it imo. It`s no better than the people who say, `you`re only enjoying the series because you`d convinced yourself it would be good beforehand`. I don`t like people on the boards trying to second guess why other people hold the opinions they do in order to try to win an argument.
     
  13. OurJud

    OurJud Deck Sergeant

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    No doubt I'm about to make myself look very silly here, but I thought Ainsley Harriot played Lister's GELF bride?

    And just another overall thought on this new series. I've been dipping in and out of the old stuff and am struck at how many scenes there are that are played straight - where the audience fall nicely silent and just listen to what's being said. Fair enough, Red Dwarf has never played like a Ken Loach film, but I'm really missing the reflective and thoughtful moments that used to punctuate the classic series so beautifully. There's simply too much sillyness in this new series.
     
  14. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    There was no argument until you started jumping in.

    How about you let the other poster reply and stop trying to answer for them.
     
  15. Pecospete666

    Pecospete666 Catering Officer

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    Another fine free half hour of entrainment! Thanks for the show GNP Looking forward to the dvd in 01/13.
     
  16. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    No, Ainsley was the Gelf Chief.
     
  17. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    if anyone has any problems with RDX maybe its best to go on twitter and take it out with doug =)

    Series X is far from perfect
     
  18. Fairfax

    Fairfax Catering Officer

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    Firstly, as I mentioned a few posts ago, the reference to Taiwan Tony was an example (along with stuff like Rimmer freezing as I said). I certainly do not want to get into the racist issue again because that was discussed far too much before. I mentioned Taiwan Tony as it was the first thing that came to mind because people DID comment that to have a vending machine character like that was `un-Dwarfy`. Nothing more, nothing less.

    You must understand that, like most people probably, I don`t come onto these messageboards thinking about whether I can win an argument. That would be madness. Just to have a friendly discussion about people who have a shared interest. Don`t look for things that aren`t there.

    The point remains. Doug has been criticized this series for stuff that was un-Dwarfy whether it was characters, language etc. He has also been criticized for having too many references to old shows (I notice that even the music has been questioned for this reason though that was down to budget. A tough situation for Doug whichever way you look at it.

    Nothing more, nothing less.
     
  19. OurJud

    OurJud Deck Sergeant

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    Ah! Thanks.
     
  20. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    so basicly what you are saying is this is your opinion and others have said the same and no one should tell you how to think?

    well what do you want to do about that? dougs on twitter if you want to have tell him how bothered the new series has got you and others

    like i said the series is far from perfect but it seems you will not change your mind about how you feel and quite alot of this series has bothered you
     

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