Episode 4 - Entangled

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by dodgebizkit, Oct 24, 2012.

  1. Fairfax

    Fairfax Catering Officer

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    Just to add to the theme of how much of a challenge this series must have been for Doug...

    Has there ever been a sitcom before that has had to be rewritten at the last minute due to a man only being allowed to be in a monkey costume for a short time?
     
  2. Fairfax

    Fairfax Catering Officer

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    What????

    I think we are talking at cross purposes here.

    What I`m saying is that when any writer (Doug in this case) brings back a show he is in a very difficult situation. If he introduces new concepts then he will be criticized for changing the show. If he does things that are similar to stuff from the past then it becomes, `that old thing`.

    I`m not talking about my personal opinions here at all. Just discussing the challenge that faces the writer.
     
  3. Fairfax

    Fairfax Catering Officer

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    The characters do tend to have less concern for alternate versions of themselves I guess. Demons and Angels being another example.
     
  4. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    Nicko is telling me that I should "respect other people's opinion" by not trying to challenge it when I think its wrong...despite the fact that, in doing so, he himself is challenging my opinion that its perfectly reasonable to do so.

    Oh the Irene E!:lol:

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Fairfax

    Fairfax Catering Officer

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    Now you know full well that that`s not what I was saying. :-D
     
  6. Fairfax

    Fairfax Catering Officer

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    I felt sorry for the guest actress in this episode actually as her part was obviously hastily written.

    If they`d had more time to prepare for it then someone like Susan Earl would have been quite suited to this character (rather than trying to play sinister as Sim Crawford) as she successfully appeared as a dimwit in Reggie Perrin.
     
  7. Butterpat_head

    Butterpat_head Third Technician

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    Actually , that would have been very funny. If he had realised the amount of paperwork he had to complete because he left a load of H&S paperwork sitting in front of an airlock...plus the fact that he would have to admit responsibility for an accident ...with a quick shifty eyeball around the vicinity to make sure nonone was looking...just chuck the lot into space....and have a sudden rethink about the whole H&S regime.
     
  8. Butterpat_head

    Butterpat_head Third Technician

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    I would more or less agree with your ordering of episedes. Its amazing to me that so many thought this one the best and are comparing it so farourably against Lemons. Just a matter of taste I suppose. Personally I found that this ep left me cold. No laughs whatsoever. Everything seemed to be telegraphed with no out of the blue one-liners (the I.Q. of 2 being an example)

    I thought Lemons was the best so far for the surprises.
    I will watch it again of course, to see if anything changes.
     
  9. lemonhead

    lemonhead Second Technician

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    If I'm honest, I didn't enjoy Lemons as much as I thought I would. It's by no means terrible... I do like the episode, I just wasn't as entertained by it as I was by Entangled. I think this episode got the most laughs out of me, and there were some nice little touches in it that made me irrationally happy (such as Rimmer's suit changing colour when he is in his soft-light form.)

    I think Robert and Danny were notably excellent and on form. The Cat has really shone this series. :-)
     
  10. RobeH56

    RobeH56 Third Technician

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    I liked Trojan, despite the odd bit of pantomime acting, but Fathers & Suns and Lemons were patchy. I was bracing myself a bit for Entangled, but it turned out to be the best episode of RD since series VI.
     
  11. Bluey

    Bluey Science Officer

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    Yes, the character has been written really well this series with some good lines and a bit of series 1 and 2 cattiness. He no longer seems largely superfluous as he often did in the past. And Danny's performances have been great.
     
  12. Dsnow_con

    Dsnow_con Third Technician

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    Agreed, Cat's been great. I rather enjoyed seeming him hunting in the beginning of the episode, it's nice to see him acting cat-like again.
     
  13. codename_47

    codename_47 First Technician

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    Rimmer was saying the opposite of what he truely meant "I don't see that working" or something and Kryten replying "no sir I assure you it WILL work" and then saying he felt at home meaning he hated the place.

    At least, that's how I took it.
     
  14. ben996

    ben996 First Technician

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    My main criticism for this series, and I'm sure at least one person will agree with me haha, is that the "tone" is different every scene, one minute it'll be series 1, then 6, then 2, and then a bit of 3, then Cat will do something from series 2, then a bit of music from 1, then a story element from 5, then some slapstick stuff from 8, and a "medi-bot data docter" from 8, and a serious moment from 7,

    It's never really found it's own footing I'm afraid, it's like bits and bobs of all the different series, where as the older series felt unique each series,

    I do stand by though and say that if Rob Grant had co-wrote this series then Trojan and possibly entangled would have been 5/5 bona fide classics appearing on most top 10 lists, and Lemons would be a whole lot better as well, get Rob back!!!
     
  15. Freeborn

    Freeborn Flight Co-Ordinator

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    Would you please link to where Andrew said these things? I'm not being argumentative here and I know you said in an earlier post that you were paraphrasing, but I can't help but feel you may be using Andrew's words slightly out of context here, albeit quite probably unintentionally.

    I mean, yes I remember him pointing out certain differences in Rob and Doug's writing styles, but never did I get the impression that he feels Doug rushes things in a way that could be deemed detrimental to the overall story arc.

    As for Doug's writing for this series, I personally think that for the most part it's been pretty darn impressive. I also feel the character acting has been superb in this series too. Rimmer is still often brimming over with his typical pedantic, argumentative-ness. And he now has a wonderful slightly older and grumpier feel to him too, which I love. I don't think it's either underplayed or over done, it's just right...in my eyes at least.

    Rimmer and Lister's relationship has been evolving for a very long time now. I loved series 1 and 2 for what they were but wouldn't like for them to still be bikering and winding each other up quite as much as they were back then. Not only would it be slightly unbelievable at this point but it would get pretty repetitive too, and I suspect some people, ahem, would be moaning about the gags being rehashed from earlier series.

    The characters must evolve and I genuinely think Chris is doing a fine job in this series. Rimmer has always had strange unexpected character moments (right from series 1 and throughout), it's just that fans have got used to them and now accept them as cannon, as I personally feel will likely be the case with the few surprising moments in this series once the hardcore massive have settled into them.

    There will always be long term fans who simply wont accept certain evolutionary changes at this stage though, and sure, perhaps in some cases there may be good reason for that, but for the most part I can't help but feel some are so passionate about the show and what came before that they will always struggle to accept change, whether for the better or worse. I always try to remind myself that I was 11 years old when I first became a fan, and that things were different back then - my perceptions may have changed somewhat...perhaps I'm slightly biased about certain series' and episodes because of my age at the time, you know? Although I'm not saying that's the only factor to take into consideration.

    As it happens |I still love the episodes I loved as a kid, and I've been pleasantly surprised to have recaptured a very similar level of enjoyment with this new series. Watching the first 3 ep's back last Saturday kinda' reminded me of how much I enjoyed watching the first 3 series 3 ep's back on video as a kid. And even though I personally like series 7 and 8, and BTE for what they are, I must say this is the first time I've felt that way about new Dwarf in quite a long time.

    However, I'm not denying that there may be some fans who would prefer any Red Dwarf [regardless of quality] over no Red Dwarf, for the most part I don't feel it's not about fans telling themselves it's better than it actually is. You're either able to accept it for what it is, and the characters for the way they've evolved (and have been well written in that way too in my view) or you don't. Although as always personal taste will always be a factor to one level of degree of course. And we Dwarfer's sure are a diverse lot, I don't think any one would disagree with that. Take 'Only the good' for example, I personally see that as classic Dwarf, yet some, even close friends of mine think it's terrible. But that's okay, there are episodes they love that I think are just Okay but not great...it doesn't make either of us scientifically correct either way. ;-)

    I don't mean to downgrade my favourite British TV show of all time but Red Dwarf has never been perfect (and as a sitcom-based show nor do I feel it needs to be) and there have always been various 'flaws' whether it be with characterisation every now and then, continuity errors or sci-fi stories that make no sense whatsoever...but are almost always lots of fun. Some of my favourite RD ep's have flaws (depending what one perceives as a flaw) but that never hinders my enjoyment of them. Take backwards for example, a very silly episode in which the lack of continuity is all over the show, but I still enjoy that one muchly. :-)

    But hay, we're all different and we all have varying limits as to what we can and will accept...and what will tantalise or offend our personal taste buds so to speak.

    Oh and as for the whole GELF discussion, I really liked this new breed. And yes the BEGGS are GELFS - an offshoot of the Kinitawowi GELF tribe is how I've taken it. Although these guys seem quite a bit more menacing for obvious reasons.

    Over the years we have seen many varieties of GELFS. From the Pleasure Gelf, Psirens, Polymorph, Kinitawowi's and various others I'm probably forgetting. I'm personally quite pleased with this new variety, even though they are somewhat similar to the Kinitawowi tribe. It makes sense that similar varieties show up every now and then, and that they will inevitably have similar cultural similarities. So yeah, the BEGGS are a fine bit of new canon in my book. :-)

    *Disclaimer: I have not read the last two pages of this thread yet, so I apologise if I've repeated anything that has already been said. I'm going to catch up with said pages now whoever :-)
     
  16. Angelic_Storm

    Angelic_Storm Catering Officer

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    I think I'm probably going against the views of most in this thread, but this episode for me, is the worst in series X so far. In too many sections, it seemed like an inferior rehash of ideas from previous episodes from the earlier series'. Such as the scene where Lister attempts to win back Rimmer and Starbug, which strongly echoed the scene from "Polymorph II" where the team bartered with the Gelfs in their hut (or, Watunga!) And the scene where Kryten dries cutlery from his back passage, which completely lacked the charm and incisiveness of the classic groinal attatchment scene from "Polymorph" which so clearly inspired it. Not to mention the bulk of the scenes with the Irene E character, which made me cringe in a way I hadn't done since the very lowest points of Series VIII. All these things were highlighted all the more, by the classic episode "Quarantine" being aired on Dave directly after "Entangled". Seeing them back to back really highlighted how inferior the latter episode is compared to the former one.

    However, I have to admit, I did laugh out loud more than once during the episode, especially Kryten's line "Well, they do have an IQ of 2 sir!" in response to Cat being outwitted by a space weevil. Which for me, is already an all time classic Dwarf gag! :-) Also, the "accident report form" gags actually worked as an endearing nod to the very early series' of Red Dwarf. I did have a smile on my face during those parts. xD

    All in all, this was the first time I actually felt underwhelmed and a bit deflated after watching one of the new episodes. There were glimpses and flashes of the old RD magic, but overall, I feel this episode contained way more flaws than the previous 3.
     
  17. Fairfax

    Fairfax Catering Officer

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    The comments will probably still be around on this board if you look through the BTE discussions. Might take you a while though. :-D

    The comment isn`t taken out of context and throughout Doug`s tenure as sole writer there are have been numerous plot chasms which prove its pertinence (along with some good writing as well of course).
     
  18. MacabreMagpie

    MacabreMagpie Catering Officer

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    Well, can't win them all! If you're enjoying the series as a whole then it's not all bad. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
     
  19. Angelic_Storm

    Angelic_Storm Catering Officer

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    I have a feeling this post was directed at me... lol

    I am enjoying the series as a whole, and even this episode was not completely devoid of redeeming qualities, so I have to say that overall, I'm still pretty happy with what I've seen of the new series so far. Generally, it is better than I was expecting it to be, and I did thoroughly enjoy episodes 1-3 of the new series. :-)
     
  20. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    series X as a whole has been a mixed bag, alot done right and alot of things that fell flat and really don't work

    i think its becomes a thing of which outweighs what for each episode
     

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