Episode 4 - Entangled

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by dodgebizkit, Oct 24, 2012.

  1. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    I believe this is what you are referring to.

    It's a strange time to bring it up though, as the densely plotted nature of Entangled with its copious exposition, pretty much disproves the theory that Doug can't write fast moving episodes that are well plotted and well explained. Not that I think this is what Andrew was suggesting but it is a popular theory that this statement is used to support.
     
  2. Angelic_Storm

    Angelic_Storm Catering Officer

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    I'd pretty much agree with that. Though I think "Entangled" is the first episode in the new series so far where the things that fell flat and didn't work outweighed the things that were done right.
     
  3. Fairfax

    Fairfax Catering Officer

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    No, not that thread. I know though that he does also mention Doug rushing onto other things there as well though. Around the BTE period he specifically mentioned having to make notes on the scripts to stop it becoming an even bigger problem.

    I really, really don`t think that Entangled can be described as well-plotted or well-explained. The BEGGs all choking? And watching the film to find how to deactivate the bomb? The whole coincidence idea was a very lame way to get the action to lurch all over the place imo.

    I hope that the rod isn`t used again because it has the ability to explain away any crazy nonsense.
     
  4. Fairfax

    Fairfax Catering Officer

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    Yes, a good point.

    I know someone mentioned on G&T that it seems like a person who likes Lemons might dislike Entangled and vice-versa and it has been that way since the start of the series. It makes for some interesting discussions.
     
  5. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    I think that's rather harsh. The coincidence thing wasn't just shoved into the episode to "explain away any crazy nonsense" it was the core premise of the story! It's not as if Doug sat down and thought, "right, I've written a lot of random scenes and I can't be bothered linking A to B in this episode so...err....I'll just say its something to do with entaglement....oh and I'll invent a book that supposedly explains it all."

    Far more likely was that he read the Koestler book (which is real), was fascinated by the subject matter and then began crafting an episode where the Dwarfers became linked by coincidences and used this heightened ability to get out of trouble. The coincidence stuff IS the main plot of Entangled, it's the other stuff that is the filling.

    I have to say that personally I think its very well explained, VERY clever and one of the best sci-fi ideas Red Dwarf has ever done.
     
  6. Fairfax

    Fairfax Catering Officer

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    Oh, absolutely. I`m sure that Doug did read the book and was interested in it but that doesn`t mean that it`s good for storytelling. The way that coincidence is used in the episode is ludicrous (let`s face it) and backs up another of Andrew Ellard`s comments that Rob was into science fiction whereas Doug is into science fantasy. Now if coincidence had been used in a believable way then it could have been a really interesting concept but this ep pushed it way too far imo.

    It`s the using the rod combined with the coincidence idea that I would say explains away crazy nonsense and it means that the episode isn`t as clever as it could have been. Also, it does become too similar to the luck virus as many have commented.
     
  7. Andrew

    Andrew Executive Officer

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    I'd say Nicko's become pretty free and easy with his 'rebranding' of what I've said, and in particular using them to 'prove' my agreement with his perspective. At very least there's an odd implication that I concur with his opinion, despite my comments predating the series under discussion.

    I'd suggest my comments were neutral and analytical, where Nicko uses them to imply agreement with his negative points, while not acknowledging that they were not positioned that way. I'd suggest it's possible to take the comments I made and use them in support of many of the things Nicko seeks to condemn.

    Still, read and decide, for yourself.

    However you see it, I'd suggest it lacks gallantry to take another's opinions out of context so far, to support arguments I'm unlikely to agree with. And, especially, it makes one feel that it's better not to contribute to discussions in the future since people will so easily abuse that.

    If nothing else, I'd look to where, exactly, I suggest that Doug is given to 'plot chasms'?!
     
  8. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    I don't really get why people are comparing it to the luck virus. I can see that there is a superficial similarity but that's all it really is. The luck virus is just making everything happen that they need to happen. The coincidence thing is much more clever than that because it involves noticing clues and following them. It's much closer to a theory of universal interconnectedness, which I find a lot more interesting and, yes, scientific, than "a magic virus".

    I'd also be careful in saying Red Dwarf with Rob always produced standout hard science. Confidence and Paranoia, Timeslides, The Inquisitor, Stasis Leak, Justice and indeed Quarantine were all at heart science fantasy with extremely hand wavey explanations for how their supposed "science" worked. Instead of saying "a wizard did it" the writers simply say "a scientist/weird space ray/radiation etc did it.

    The quantum rod is no different but I think Naylor put more exposition to make it seem believable into Entangled than the vast majority if not all of those episodes did and I'm really impressed that he did it.
     
  9. Fairfax

    Fairfax Catering Officer

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    I certainly didn`t mean to rebrand anything that you`ve said Andrew and obviously didn`t mean that you would agree with my comments about the plotting of this series. I certainly didn`t mean that you would suggest or agree that Doug is given to `plot chasms` either. My comments were a genuine recollection of what you wrote circa BTE which was obviously on a slightly different topic to the link that you`ve given.

    Anyway, sorry if it seemed like I was saying anything out of turn and congratulations on the success of the series thus far which seems to be doing brilliantly in the ratings. Good to know that you are still reading these forums and as my criticisms are intended to be constructive hopefully you are happy enough to read them anyway.
     
  10. Fairfax

    Fairfax Catering Officer

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    With the BEGGs it really is a case of, `we need them to die, they`ve died` though. That is identical to how the luck virus worked. I honestly don`t think them noticing clues came across as clever at all but maybe that`s just me.

    I think a big issue actually is that coincidence ISN`T the plot for this episode but is only the concept. In Quarantine, to use a random example, the 2 ideas of directives and viruses come together and create a really tight plot that knits together perfectly. In Entangled coincidence isn`t directly linked with health and safety, the BEGGs or the error stuff. Therefore you have disparate scenes that seem to have been bolted together.
     
  11. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    But they didn't "need them to die". In fact them dying was counterproductive to what they needed: the information about how to unlock the exploder. This was a case of an unfortunate coincidence that worked against them. That's another reason it was different to the luck virus, the coincidences didn't always help them, sometimes they impaired them.
    What they figured out was that by paying attention they could perhaps use some of the coincidences to help them.
     
  12. Robert26

    Robert26 Second Technician

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    I think Andrew's comments were well thought out and not intended as any kind of criticism against the writers. I agree it is a matter of taste. If Grant and Naylor won't work together then I would rather have Naylor solo than Grant solo. Grant is too dark for me and I felt his dark ideas were often kept in check by Naylor. Naylor seems to care about the characters more. Remember that Grant said in an interview he didn't think the show should continue with the same actors but rather should be rebooted with a younger cast. I would suggest Grant probably viewed Red Dwarf as a way to explore ideas and relationships whereas Naylor was more interested in justt telling a story.

    But yes it is all down to taste. Douglas Adams wrote two very different Hitchhiker novels as the last books in the series and fans are very split over which one they prefer.
     
  13. Fairfax

    Fairfax Catering Officer

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    We will have to agree to disagree. :-D
     
  14. Freeborn

    Freeborn Flight Co-Ordinator

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    Ah yes, this does indeed confirm my concerns for the way I felt your words were quite likely being 'rebranded' as you so perfectly put it. Just how intentional or unintentional that was however is something I shall reserve judgement on at this point...particially because I still feel 'a little tipsey' after waking up ridiculously early. But yeah, what you said there was certainly taken out of context, to say the least.

    While I completely empathise with your reaction to this, Andrew, I do hope you will still contribute to these discussions every now and then.

    And yeah, I know you and I have had the odd minor disagreement in the past, along with what I hope was perceived by yourself as light hearted banter. But honestly, I've never genuinely disliked you and have always felt you not only a worthy [ex] admin, but also a genuine asset to this forum.

    I've also come to the conclusion (long ago in fact) that I don't think you arrogant, sir. But rather I recognise that you simply don't beat around the bush, so to speak - and nore are you one for occasional ambiguos-ness (admittedly unlike myself at times, ahem). Which is certainly not a bad thing - even though your directness can sometimes be misinterpreted by some (including myself in the past) every now and then.

    What I'm trying to say here is; I miss you. And don't ever leave us again!

    *Goes in for the Rimmer/Lister-esque kiss*

    Anyway, that's quite enough of all that lovey dovey stuff!...RATM for Xmas No.1!

    Nah, ["I'm not the same 'Freeborn' you once knew"] in all seriousness, you're 'good peeps' in my book. Always have been :-)

    By the way, you certainly put forth some very interesting and insightful points in that particular post you linked too. I miss that. Genuinely.

    Oh and one last thing, you will be script editor for any potential future series of RD, right? I especially loved your script note suggestion of having Lister waking up (feeling a bit like I do right now) in the shopping trolley [yeah, I 'lurk' on your twitter page from time to time] 'twas a genuinely classic Dwarfy moment for me personally :-)

    Edit: Although my missing your contributions to this forum is not to say I don't think Seb is doing a good job of managing this place, 'cause I do. But such insight from one who actually works with Doug directly is still muchly appreciated by many of us here.
     
  15. Angelic_Storm

    Angelic_Storm Catering Officer

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    This is almost exactly how I feel too. :-) Not since the best moments of series VII, have I watched new RD episodes and felt like I'm watching some classic Dwarf. As I said previously, not every re-visit to classic-era scenes/gags/story lines has worked (and when they haven't they've been pretty awful), but I think for the most part this series, they have, which as a longtime Dwarf fan, gives me a warm glow in my heart! I said a while back in an old thread that what I wanted from Series X, was for Doug to try and tap into what made the first 6 series of Red Dwarf so special, without borrowing too much specific ideas from those series'. Whilst he certainly hasn't been able to completely pull that off without a hitch, this new series has felt far closer to classic Dwarf than I ever imagined it would. xD
     
  16. SixthDwarfer

    SixthDwarfer Supply Officer

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    For me, it's my second favourite episode this season.

    1. Trojan
    2. Entangled
    3. Fathers and Suns
    4. Lemons
     
  17. starlight84uk

    starlight84uk Third Technician

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    I would've liked Rimmer to get the girl. I thought Chris looked very cute when Irene said she thought Rimmer was brave. Maybe go on a few more dates before getting to it though.
     
  18. CharlieTeague

    CharlieTeague First Technician

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    For me probably,
    1. Entangled :-D
    2. Fathers and Suns :-)
    3. Trojan :-)
    4. Lemons :?
     
  19. sundayforsammy

    sundayforsammy Deck Sergeant

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    I have to say in fav order this is my pick

    1. Entangled
    2. Trojan
    3. Fathers and Suns
    4. Lemons

    Looking forward to rating the whole series, it's already for me shaping out to be in my top 3 or 4 series although at first I was a bit unsure it really is now looking good. Every series has a really poor ep and this one is Lemons, so I hope the last two eps are absolute riots. sorry i'm a bit Off Topic in this thread.
     
  20. Bluey

    Bluey Science Officer

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    This is my episode order:

    1. Fathers and Suns
    2. Entangled
    3. Trojan
    4. Lemons

    If the last two episodes are better than average, I think X will go down as my third favourite series behind 5 and 6.
     

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