RDXII EPISODE 4 - MECHOCRACY - DISCUSSION THREAD

Discussion in 'RED DWARF XI / XII' started by Seb, Oct 26, 2017.

  1. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    That doesn't contradict the references in X, because they only say that Dave-Rimmer saved the ship. It doesn't mean Dave-Rimmer is a hologram of nano-Rimmer. Quite possibly I-VII-Rimmer-as-Ace came back and saved the ship, then for some reason quit wearing the wig and jacket.

    IIRC Dave-Rimmer has never expressed any recollection of events throughout Series VIII, only the very end. So maybe he swooped in from another dimension after the credits rolled.
     
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  2. Underdunn

    Underdunn First Technician

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    My own head-cannon was always that he's both! Through a confusing mess of brain logic by me where series 8 rimmer is killed and the hologram that's brought back afterwards has both the memories of the Rimmer from the computer of the ressurected ship and also the memories of the old Rimmer from the computer onboard the original starbug!

    I was always happy enough believing that!

    Of course that does mean that the Ace Rimmer version is still out there somewhere too.

    Although not a fan of series 8 it still wouldn't sit well with me that all of Rimmers adventures there don't count.
     
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  3. DivineVarod

    DivineVarod Catering Officer

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    I thought Doug said this is both nano and series 1 to 7 Rimmer who returned from being Ace with the memories combined.
    Now I could see Rimmer deciding to include those memories, just to see what his nano version and Lister talked about.
     
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  4. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    He could be both. Death recovers from being kneed and dispatches nano-Rimmer. Ace-Rimmer-Rimmer swoops in and saves everyone, either through a brave cunning plan or a fluke. Because nano-Rimmer has died, he agrees to stop being Ace, and has nano-Rimmer's memories integrated with his holo-matrix.
     
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  5. DivineVarod

    DivineVarod Catering Officer

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    Now I want to see that scene ...
     
  6. Underdunn

    Underdunn First Technician

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    Well then I have no choice but to go along with the guy who wrote it! And I'm happy to think it's both our Rimmers all squished together... hooray! Still think we need the Series 8 Rimmer to die though for that to work, which is why I'm still plumping for that being the second death refrenced.
     
  7. thinkingman

    thinkingman Third Technician

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    Personally I am not keen on some of these theories - they seem very far fetched. Ace Rimmer swooping in at the last minute to save the day after nano-Rimmer has just died, and then having their memories combined just seems too much.

    Plus this Rimmer (series X - XII) is just like series VIII Rimmer. I can't imagine Ace Rimmer coming back after all the adventures (and quite possibly lots of sex!) and reverting to his old self.

    A much simpler explanation is that nano-Rimmer died, was resurrected as a Hologram, and just had the memories of the previous Rimmer merged with his own.
     
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  8. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    If he's nano-Rimmer resurrected as a hologram, then how is he hardlight. Red Dwarf only does softlight holograms.
     
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  9. jmc2000

    jmc2000 Deck Sergeant

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    Also, if Nano Rimmer saved the day, Holo Rimmer might just be claiming responsibility for actions done by "a" Rimmer. He might not have personally saved the crew, but he didn't personally wipe them out either. He is a simulation of the person who did.

    A hologram isn't the "spirit" of a dead person. If Nano Rimmer was identical to Original Rimmer, then Hologram Rimmer is as much a simulation of Nano Rimmer as he is a simulation of Original Rimmer. He can reasonably claim the actions of both (or neither) as his own.
     
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  10. thinkingman

    thinkingman Third Technician

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    Presumably Kryten would have the knowledge of how to make hardlight. Or at least that knowledge would be stored somewhere if not by Kryten.
     
  11. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    Would the nano-reconstructed-Red-Dwarf contain a database of I-VII Rimmer's memories?
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2017
  12. Slainmonkey

    Slainmonkey Deck Sergeant

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    Well maybe it's for the best, I mean I know I don't want the show to get bogged down on details an a bad episode from better part of 20 years ago. Honestly his joke in The Beginning I feel was his own way of poking fun of the fact he wrote himself into a corner during series 8!
     
  13. Underdunn

    Underdunn First Technician

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    Mehh, Rimmer probably had Kryten reverse engineer his new hard light bee some point after the Legion episode, so he always had some spares knocking about just incase!

    In fact the original Ace Rimmers (broken) light bee would still have been onboard Starbug, so let's say they fixed that!
     
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  14. The Cat

    The Cat Third Technician

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    Well if that’s what Doug said, that they’re merged, then that must be right and it does make sense... mostly. Doesn’t this mean the original, now Ace, had just been turned off if he didn’t return, as the ship can only have one hologram.
     
  15. thinkingman

    thinkingman Third Technician

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    Considering they restored everything and some, then I'd imagine so.
     
  16. thinkingman

    thinkingman Third Technician

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    It makes less sense than RD normally does. I am struggling to find any reference to Doug saying it happened this way too.
     
  17. The Cat

    The Cat Third Technician

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    Also I’m just wondering what Cat was nodding at when Rimmer lies about believing in silicone heaven. Was it him thinking he’s doing well (doubt it haha) or him agreeing with Lister that it’s a load or rubbish when he throughs a peice of popcorn at the screen?
     
  18. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    Can't say i have ever heard that before.

    I heard some mention Doug said it was the Original Rimmer but thats about it.

    Sometimes i think fans try and make sense of something that Doug probably hasn't put much thought into himself because he just wanted to jump back onboard the show and not have to explain anything left open by series 8.

    Thats why you will always hear talk of Lister being the last human on the show or Rimmer killing the crew but you won't ever hear about that time the crew were resurrected and then left the ship by the end of the series and are still around somewhere.
     
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  19. jmc2000

    jmc2000 Deck Sergeant

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    I know he said it was the original Rimmer in RDX (at some fan event) but the memories combined thing is new to me. To be fair, I think you're entitled to ignore that remark until it's confirmed in-episode, if you have a fan theory you prefer. I suspect Doug Naylor will always leave some ambiguity around it to keep his options open :-)

    The merging really is one of the least far-fetched things Red Dwarf has ever done. It isn't a case of splicing two distinct holograms together because there aren't two distinct holograms. There's just one bit of software that simulates Rimmer when his presence is required. It bases the simulation on everything it knows about him. It won't care whether the source material came from original Rimmer or the rebuilt Nano Rimmer, or a previous instance of Holo Rimmer. It just wants to make the best simulation possible, so draws on all the information it has about what Rimmer knows, how he acts, etc..

    Think of Rimmer as being like the AI app on a smartphone. Let's call it Paul. Imagine you have a phone with Paul 5.1.2, which knows how to answer questions, like, "What time is it in France?" As you use it, it learns stuff about you, like the fact that "home" is an address in Manchester, and "Sue" is a Manchester landline.

    Then you lose your phone when you move house, and buy a cheaper one with Paul 5.1.1. You have to use your mobile data allowance - because you don't have a broadband connection yet - so your phone isn't downloading any meaty updates. The earlier version of Paul isn't quite as good, and says, "I'm sorry, I don't understand that question" if you ask about the time in France. After a while of using it, it learns that "home" is an address in London, while "Sue" has a mobile phone nowadays.

    When you get your broadband installed, you connect to wifi for the first time. Your phone downloads a bunch of updates, including Paul 5.1.2. Now you've got a phone that knows what time it is in France, but also knows your new London address and Sue's newest contact details.

    You don't say, "But which Paul is it? Has new Paul merged with old Paul?" because that's not how software and software updates work. There were never two distinct Pauls. Just a single app, which got out-of-date on your newest phone and eventually caught up when it had chance.

    The only mystery to me is if/how the current Red Dwarf computer knows what happened to "Rimmer" during series VI and VII, because they were out of contact with it during that time, and Starbug crashed during the reunion. However, given how quickly my phone connects to wifi and starts downloading updates when I arrive home - at 21st Century speeds! - it wouldn't surprise me if Red Dwarf's computer did a complete "sync" while they were hurtling through the air ducts. So I'm happy to accept that the AI simulating Rimmer in RDX-XII knows everything that happened to a) the original living Rimmer, b) the revived Nano Rimmer, and c) all instances of Holo Rimmer, produced either by the ship directly or by the light bee elsewhere. And I would expect it to draw on all those experiences when simulating Rimmer in the present.
     
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  20. Underdunn

    Underdunn First Technician

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    That's true! They all buggered off in starbugs! BTE was set 9 years later. I wonder if you can live for 9 years in a starbug, or whether their grim off-screen resolution involved them eventually all starving to death?! :eek:

    There is definitely a suggestion that they died though isn't there? One of the series X episodes (Dear Dave I think) has the characters restate that Lister is the last living human.
     

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