RDXII EPISODE 4 - MECHOCRACY - DISCUSSION THREAD

Discussion in 'RED DWARF XI / XII' started by Seb, Oct 26, 2017.

  1. DivineVarod

    DivineVarod Catering Officer

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    Good point, I thought about that too!
     
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  2. The Cat

    The Cat Third Technician

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    Same, as I saw that part i was waiting for Rimmer to say something like: “as a machine myself...”.
     
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  3. Abe

    Abe Deck Sergeant

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    In Timeslides he was excited to be alive, instead of it just being a regular thing. He therefore still knew he had been dead. Thus, somehow both deaths are known about on this timeline. Also, Rimmer didn't actually kill himself in Only the Good.... Rather, he likely just died.
     
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  4. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    I find it hard to believe that died twice thing was aimed at timeslides because it would be such an odd thing for Doug to remember and feel it was important to acknowledge.

    I am wondering whether Doug was getting at the ending of Only The Good but if he was then it just muddles waters more since he mentions non-stop that rimmer killed the Red Dwarf crew which would still mean it was the original Rimmer.

    And all that stuff about it being the same Rimmer with both memories just over complexes the show as it is.
     
  5. DivineVarod

    DivineVarod Catering Officer

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    Would have been a good one, especially if Lister and Kryten would look at him in shock and Lister going: "Smeg, he played the machine card!"
     
  6. jmc2000

    jmc2000 Deck Sergeant

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    Don't forget - the party political broadcast didn't say Rimmer had "died twice". It said he "killed himself twice". There are only two episodes in which he accidentally killed himself: The End and Timeslides.

    The alternative is that the second time refers to an unknown event which has never been shown on screen or mentioned by the characters. That would be even weirder than having a callback to a throwaway gag in Timeslides.
     
  7. Underdunn

    Underdunn First Technician

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    You could probably ask him on Twitter... I bet he'd just dodge the question though, the fiend!
     
  8. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    In Tikka to Ride, Lister says "they killed us". If future-Rimmer killed present-Rimmer, then Rimmer killed himself.
     
  9. RainbowGazelle

    RainbowGazelle Second Technician

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    Yeah, I'm thinking it's the ending to Out Of Time that's more likely being referenced.
     
  10. RainbowGazelle

    RainbowGazelle Second Technician

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    I think you're getting Only the Good mixed up with Out of Time.
     
  11. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    Yes, Out of Time. We have no idea what Rimmer did after Only the Good . . . He may have killed himself, it would explain why nano-Rimmer is no longer with us. But I always took it to refer to the end of Out of Time, explained in Tikka to Ride: "they killed us".
     
  12. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    Doug retconned that in Tikka to ride since Lister in the recap says their future selves killed them and erased themselves from history.

    thats why in the flashback it cuts away before Rimmers shoots the time drive.

    I dunno why Doug changed that but hey.
     
  13. Underdunn

    Underdunn First Technician

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    I don't know about that. A lot of analysis over semantics going on here - and a lot of faith being given to an anti Rimmer statement being given in a party political broadcast! Given we all watched an entire series where Rimmer was alive throughout - and was then dead when we rejoined him again for the Dave era - it seems a much more obvious thing to be referencing to the viewers than the more obscure end gag of timeslides to me.

    Continuity is all out the window with this anyway though! I mean, *technically* the Rimmer we're following now never blew up Red Dwarf and was never even involved in the Timeslides adventure anyway!!
     
  14. RainbowGazelle

    RainbowGazelle Second Technician

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    Yeah, I know. Future Rimmer killed himself.
     
  15. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    I get the feeling its meant to be the same rimmer.
     
  16. jmc2000

    jmc2000 Deck Sergeant

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    If the line was "died twice", I'd fully agree. But it's "killed himself twice".

    Based on what we're actually shown on-screen, the most likely explanation for him being a hologram again is the fact that he was killed by a vending machine when the ship was imperilled by a shape-shifting microbe. Because we see him about to die for that reason, and then he's a hologram when the show comes back.

    If we factor in stuff that's been said off-screen, the other (probably more) likely explanation is to say that current hologram Rimmer is the original character who left to become Ace and was already dead. In that case, he didn't have to die a second time to be a hologram, because he never came back to life.

    With that in mind... if "killed himself twice" refers to the fact that he's now a hologram again, after being alive in series 8, we have to assume that:

    a)
    Dave-era Rimmer is a hologram of the living Nano-Rimmer from series VIII (allowing him to die twice) - which contradicts word-of-God remarks from the writer - and

    b)
    He actually escaped the attempt on his life in the Only the Good cliffhanger (allowing him to later be responsible for his own death) - which requires us to imagine an event that isn't shown on screen or even mentioned by characters.

    Anything's possible in Red Dwarf :-) but I wouldn't personally go for an interpretation that requires a) and b).
     
  17. The Cat

    The Cat Third Technician

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    But both the Rimmers were holograms so they can’t have died, just destroyed because they were already dead. My first thought, when first watching it that night, was Only The Good But he didn’t kill himself, he was killed by the vending machine and/or the microbe. Also Red Dwarf can only sustain one hologram. I assume that the original Rimmer that left is still being ran by the ship, so unless they turned him off, to make the new Rimmer a hologram, then the original Rimmer must have returned. So I recon it must be Timeslides.
     
  18. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    But Lister says "they killed us", meaning the word "killed" is used for holograms being destroyed. We also have the same word used in Back to Earth re: Katerina. Lister didn't say "they killed Cat and I, and destroyed Rimmer and Kryten". Granted it's Kryten that says the line in Mechocracy, and Kryten might be more pedantic about terminology, but he might not. Especially given the point of the information is to smear Rimmer as unstable.
     
  19. Underdunn

    Underdunn First Technician

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    It is, can't argue with that. But I do think there's a lot of emphasis and credence based on the semantics of that which I doubt even Doug "Spit On Her Wrist" Naylor gave a second thought to! Especially since it was written to be part of a deliberately anti-rimmer spin on a party political broadcast! I mean, you can say someone 'killed themself' crossing a road if you like, especially if your trying to find a way to phrase it which puts the onus on the victim in order to discredit them. I'm dubious that there was anything deep and literal to the dialogue outside of 'what scans best in the context of a damning election broadcast' myself.

    But as we learn in Series X, Rimmer saved the day after that scene - something he continues to claim glory over but the rest of the crew insist was just a fluke... This dialogue (from 'The Beginning') is also the one concrete piece of information we have that confirms we are indeed following the Rimmer who was involved in 'Only The Good'.

    That said, I don't know what the off-screen stuff you are reffering to is. Has Doug or the cast publically said that we are in fact following the old Rimmer then? If so, fair enough, I'd have no choice but to add the scenes from 'The Beginning' into the same pot where Lister can remember playing pool with planets!
     
  20. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    Apparently Doug was asked at a convention in 2012 which Rimmer it was and at that time he said it was the original 1-7 Rimmer.

    And its not exactly hard to see that when all Doug does is mention Rimmer killing the Red Dwarf crew because of the drive plate or other past show references.

    Personally i don't think we will ever get a resolution to the series 8 cliffhanger because its abit of a mess.
     
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