Explain that? Lemons edition

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century, May 7, 2017.

  1. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    So many explain that's I think it needs its own thread. Not all of these are necessarily outright plot holes, some are mysteries that went unanswered.

    Where did the Rejuvination Shower come from. Kryten just says it was "in transit", what does that mean?

    Why does Kryten have the Returner Remote in his hand? He didn't know he was going to get taken anywhere he needed to return from.

    Given it zapped them to 1st century Britain by accident, why did it come with a "Returner Remote"? It wasn't supposed to take them anywhere they needed to return from. If "Returner Remote" means "Return to your previous state of un-juvination", why would that be a special remote, why wouldn't that just be the control panel. If you wanted to "return" to your previous state, you'd just get in the shower. How would it work by remote. If it works by remote then why not have the initial rejuvination work by remote too. It doesn't make sense, surely you're in the shower for it to Rejuvinate / Unjuvinate you. And why would the remote have such an astronomical range.

    The time-and-space-travel mishap was presumably to do with "rejuvinating" them back through their ancestry, ie go right back beyond your youth to your fertilisation to your parents, grandparents, etc. But Cat is about a million generations out from the other three. Ancestrally he's three million years older. So if it took the other three roughly 2130 years through their ancestry, about 60-odd (human) generations, Cat would still be on Red Dwarf. Cats breed much faster, and his genealogy is way out from ther others. Kryten is also two centuries out from Lister and Rimmer. But maybe his part-organic brain was similarly born in the mid-22nd century? Lister is presumably mixed-race like Craig Charles is, so Lister could have ended up in Africa or wherever else his ancestors were then. But conceivably part of his ancestry may line up with Rimmer's and Kryten's part-brain. Or is it nothing to do with genealogy?

    Similarly, Rimmer and Kryten are inorganic. I suppose I can offer a fix for this myself and say Kryten's brain is part-organic, although isn't it a couple of centuries out from Lister? I don't know how it worked on a hologram. Did it read his DNA code in his light-bee and know where to send him?

    How does Kryten know they're in Britain in 23 AD without the psi-scan? He just wiggles his head and knows.

    What did they do for food and water walking across Eurasia for six months? We see them buy the lemons, with what currency? Should we infer that they got jobs to get the right currency to buy food for their journey? Wouldn't it then have taken a lot longer than six months?

    Why does everyone in 1st century India speak modern English, which didn't exist?
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2017
  2. Pendo

    Pendo Supply Officer

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    I'll try and answer some of these.

    I always assumed it came from the Trojan (as did Pree in Fathers and Suns). I'm sure there was supposed to be a running thread across all episodes, that I think got lost somewhere along the way, that the Trojan was responsible for all the new tech and dodgy situations the crew landed themselves in. Wasn't there an idea for the last episode that was scrapped, that there was actually a monster onboard the Trojan?

    They were sifting through all the spare parts. He just so happened to be holding it when they were rejuvenated.

    I've never thought of the time jump as being a rejuvenation through ancestry, but it's an interesting idea. However, I think if you look at it that way it doesn't work. I just think it was simple, good old, time travel. They didn't rejuvenate through their ancestry, they just went back in time.

    How does Kryten know a lot of things! He knows what he needs to for the purpose of the plot haha. It's always been that way so it doesn't really bother me.

    We don't see the journey so they could have done anything. I imagine Cat might have used his dormant hunting skills? They could have traded with people. After all, they're from the future. The best thing to trade would be knowledge.

    No idea.
     
  3. Mardroid

    Mardroid Console Officer

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    They're wearing different clothes, so I think it's fair to say a whole bunch of stuff has happened on the way.

    I was a bit puzzled by the fact they particularly targeted lemons over other fruit and veg more readily available. I wouldn't have minded if it was mentioned somehow, as that could have made an amusing gag. (I.e. they go all the way to India for lemons, then somehow find out - maybe back on ship - that they could have used something else. They turn on Kryten, who informs them that the other fruit and veg as battery sources had been removed during a previous garbage dump since he figured lemons and potatoes would be sufficient, and he doubted they'd ever be in a situation the need would arise.)

    I was even more puzzled by the fact Ancient British resembles English and they keep bumping into people who have been to Albion when Greek would have been the lingua-franca of that time period, and even that was probably known by relatively few in India. I guess you could get around it by arguing that Kryten was translating (off-screen maybe to earpieces) or 'future tech' like a universal translator was involved, but when you consider their language was recognised...

    Also, I'm not sure Jesus would have been able to write in English or read it for that matter, but I guess the ships computer (not Holly, one of the subsidiary ones) could have provided translations...

    A small thing: Jesus also uses 'Thee' and 'thou' wrong. It's singular. (Like the French 'tu') When talking to a group of people he should have used 'you' or 'ye' (Like French 'vous'). But they were obviously playing that for laughs so not a big deal.
     
  4. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    If they have a universal translator, where is it? Is it a little badge on their clothes that they always wear? If so, why does Kryten need to translate GELF?
     
  5. HO HO HO I'M JMC

    HO HO HO I'M JMC Deck Sergeant

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    Not quite. The Anglo Saxons had an extra letter that sometimes looked like a Y - in some fancy scripts - but was pronounced "th". It was a whole extra letter called "thorn", though. When you see Ye Olde Pub, it's actually The Olde Pub. Confusion arose because people who were unfamiliar with the thorn mistook it for the letter "Y" in a fancy script, and started using "ye" for "the" to be olde worlde.

    However, confusingly, "ye" (with an actual "Y", rather than a thorn) has also been the plural of "you". Two different words.
     
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  6. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    A similar problem exists in GELF. Old GELF had a specific character for "ech", called "ech", but after the Kinitowawi Conquest, Old GELF characters fell out of favour with the ruling elite. In the later manuscript tradition, "ech" became increasingly stylised and looked like "agh". In the 29,800th century, "aghack oghuk gaach" began appearing on GELF pub signs in an attempt to look traditional, when it actual fact the signs should read "echack oguk gaach". Confusingly, aghack is an actual word though.
     
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  7. HO HO HO I'M JMC

    HO HO HO I'M JMC Deck Sergeant

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    That would have been a much better explanation. Kryten could have simply said, "Engaging real-time translation mode."

    If the translator worked like Google Translate, you could imagine that it simply wasn't programmed with far-future GELF languages (especially if they'd salvaged it from a Twenty Something Century derelict).

    Sadly, it was explained by characters having been to "Albion" and therefore knowing English, which doesn't make sense.

    This is surely the least pressing linguistic error in the episode :-)

    If English had existed that early, we could at least say that Jesus, speaking it as a second language, made an honest error.
     
  8. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    And its not just Jesus of Caesarea and lemon-seller. Jesus' friend speaks English, as does the maƮtre d, as does real Jesus and his twin, and they weren't even talking to the Dwarfers. In fact, in a restaurant in 1st century India, we don't hear any Sanskrit.

    Another point that occurs to me is that India wasn't part of the Roman Empire. Those centurions had no authority or even reason to be there, really. Had they specifically gone to India to arrest Jesus of Caesarea for whatever he'd done?
     
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  9. Mardroid

    Mardroid Console Officer

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    This, pretty much. (I found out about the thorn thing via Qi. :-)

    Actually in the old dialect, 'you' was also used and was also plural/formal singular* like 'ye'. (So there were four words for 'you' in total, 2 informal singular and 2 plural/singular formal. 'Thee, thou, you and ye'. The word 'you' just came to encompass the meanings of all the rest.) Which one was used depends on how it was used... (I have an idea, but I won't inflate this post further with my waffle. Well, apart from the bit below. And this. ;-) )

    * [ALERT- Drifting further off-subject so feel free to ignore this bit...] By 'formal singular', I mean if you wanted to be formal or polite (i.e you didn't know the person that well, or you were addressing someone of rank), you would say 'you' or 'ye' even if you were speaking to one person. Curiously in the King James version of the Bible, I don't think they ever use the words 'ye' and 'you' that way, it's always plural. That means they refer to God as 'thee' and 'thou' as a singular entity, even though that's the informal singular usage. Ironically because it was used so often for God, it's now thought of as respectful and formal to modern readers. Not that the original translators intended to be disrespectful. I think they either just wanted it clear to indicate the amount of people being addressed, or they wanted to show God as accessible and approachable to everyone, like your Dad, rather than someone you had to tip-toe up to through a priest, which was formerly the case via Catholicism.
     
  10. HO HO HO I'M JMC

    HO HO HO I'M JMC Deck Sergeant

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    I think the only way of making sense of Lemons is to imagine that the rejuvenator shower not only transported them through time, but catapulted them - Ace Rimmer-style - across the multiverse. So the action unfolds in a dimension that resembles, but is not identical to, our own.

    In that case, it was short-sighted of Kryten to rely on his "home dimension" knowledge of when certain foodstuffs arrived in the British Isles. If they'd explored "alternative Albion" for a few hours, they might have found a pineapple tree, growing by a hotdog stand or something.
     
  11. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    Does Lemons explain why the Roman soldiers are trying to arrest Jesus of Caesarea? That's another part I don't understand. It made no sense even when we thought he was Jesus of Nazareth, because Jesus of Nazareth didn't start upsetting the authorities until he was 30. So why would they be arresting him when he was a 23 year-old anoynmous carpenter they'd never heard of. We then find out he's Jesus of Caesarea, but what had Jesus of Caesarea done that was so heinous that the Romans specifically hunted him down in India, beyond the limits of the Roman Empire?
     
  12. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    Even if it was our dimension's Albion, our dimension's Albion had fruit and vegetables in the late Iron Age. Apples, for instance. And Kryten would know that.
     
  13. Wenceslas

    Wenceslas Deck Sergeant

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    His father was Samuel, chicken stealer. Jesus said that he had problems because of him.
     
  14. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    So they tracked him to India because his father stole chickens.
     
  15. Wenceslas

    Wenceslas Deck Sergeant

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    It sounds really weird, but that's, what he told Lister. :lol:
     
  16. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    I guess they were really cracking down on crime.
     
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