Explain That?

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by Hollo_Marx, Sep 28, 2014.

  1. Hollo_Marx

    Hollo_Marx Catering Officer

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    So we all know that Red Dwarf is full of plot holes and inconsistencies. Personally for me, it's one of the things that makes me LOVE the show. Clearly the writers never took it too seriously, and I love them for that.

    I know that people often try to come up with explanations to make these inconsistencies work in the show. I thought it might be fun to have one place to sort of keep track of them.

    So I just watched Time Slides, and after Lister comes back from the photograph with Hitler, he suddenly has an old newspaper talking about the incident with him and Hitler. Has anyone come up with an explanation for that? How did they suddenly get a newspaper from the 1940s in perfect condition?
     
  2. Simonr1978

    Simonr1978 Deck Sergeant

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    I always assumed that he had Holly look it up and print him off a copy from historical records after he got back to see if there was now any mention of him, rather than them happening to have an original copy lying around. Either that or Red Dwarf has an extensive and previously unmentioned Museum Deck.

    I think I've said it before though, Timeslides is an episode best watched without brain in gear.

    One thing that I've never got about that scene (Apart from that they've almost completely got the historical side of it wrong) is that the mutated developing fluid caused the pictures to come to life, OK, so even if I'm going for suspension of disbelief enough to accept that, if Kryten took a picture from Rimmer's magazine then all that he'd have got would be a "living" copy of a picture of the magazine, without the negatives of the original event surely all he'd have would have been a picture of a picture of Hitler, not a picture of the actual event.
     
  3. Hollo_Marx

    Hollo_Marx Catering Officer

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    So watching Terrorform and just caught that Rimmer says, "This isn't the British Embassy!" Wouldn't he have wanted the Ionian Embassy? Or was Io considered part of the British Empire? I've not read the books, so they might shed light on whether this was a mistake or not.
     
  4. Simonr1978

    Simonr1978 Deck Sergeant

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    They don't (If anything, the books portray the individual planets and moons as more akin to nation states rather than nationality being determined by lines drawn on a map). If I had to come up with an explanation though and keeping it within what's on the TV series (Since the books are largely considered a parallel continuity rather than the same universe), Arnold Rimmer retains British or Dual-British/Ionian citizenship based on his parent's origins and either the British embassy is the one he's more likely to encounter or is regarded as the best claim for potential sanctuary or assistance.

    No idea why that might be, maybe the currency being Dollar-Pounds means that you lot have finally seen sense and asked us to have you back. :twisted:
     
  5. simulant37

    simulant37 Science Officer

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    Yes Io is part of the 2nd Great British Empire! All hail the Empire!
     
  6. OurJud

    OurJud Deck Sergeant

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    There's a scene in Bodyswap that's always puzzled me.

    When Dave Rimmer (see what I did there?) is in the jacuzzi, reading the woman's muscle magazine, the scene starts with the character making a noise which I can only assume is kind of 'Phwoar', but why does it sound like a record is stuck?

    Oooh, I think I just got it. Is it supposed to be Rimmer's hologram malfunctioning?
     
  7. Ant E

    Ant E Flight Co-Ordinator

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    In demons and angels kryten states his login code is "additional 001". Surely he should be 002?
     
  8. simulant37

    simulant37 Science Officer

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    Its just Rimmer lusting after the body builder women in the magazine. You are reading to much into it. Although from the first shot of gym equipment which pans over to the jacuzzi viewers could momentarily think the repetitive groaning is him working out before the reveal...
     
  9. magnusgreel

    magnusgreel First Technician

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    I suppose. Kryten would be more likely to get himself registered than the Cat, who wouldn't bother...

    Timeslides... yes, they seem to be jumping into photographs for which no negatives exist. Leaving aside the fact that they'd be far beyond photographic film at that point... I decided that they had to have taken a photograph OF the photograph, developed it, and then used that negative. Often there's only one conceivable way that a point of confusion can be reconciled, even when they don't bother to explain.

    Same with the altered-history newspaper. since the ONLY way it could be there is if Holly had printed it from historical records, that's what happened. I think that in an awful lot of these cases, they actually did think it through. Then they realized it would destroy the comic timing to pause to explain it.
     
  10. OurJud

    OurJud Deck Sergeant

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    Ah, yes, that makes more sense. It just always strikes me as odd the way it sounds.
     
  11. OurJud

    OurJud Deck Sergeant

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    The whole of White Hole, and in particular how much Lister contradicts himself when talking about the pool shot that's been set up by Holly. It's quite obvious to me that Doug and Rob knew/know nothing about pool.

    First of all he says, "There's not enough side spin... it's a complete miscue."
    The more side spin you apply to the cueball, the more likely you are to miscue as you're effectively striking less of the ball.

    Then, "She's topped it, she's topped it. That shot is a felt-ripper. That ball is off the table and into someone's pint of beer"
    To 'top' a ball means to hit the cueball at its top (12 o'clock) in order to 'follow through' - so how would this result in the felt being ripped or the ball flying of the table?
     
  12. Simonr1978

    Simonr1978 Deck Sergeant

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    I'm sorry but that doesn't reconcile it at all for me. If you take a photograph of a magazine picture, that's just what you'll have, a photo of a magazine, not a photo of the events depicted, so logically (And I say that fully well aware that there is nothing whatsoever logical about Timeslides) going by what little there is described all you'll bring to life, the magazine cutting and not the rally.

    One other that has bugged me for a while with Timeslides though, we know that (Unlike the stasis leak) the crew can both take stuff into the past and bring stuff back from the past, so why don't they try to bring some people back to their present? One of Kryten's slides shows the crew of the Nova 5 for example.

    But again, it's Timeslides. Once you start thinking about it, it really makes almost no sense at all.

    The perils of producing sci-fi. If Kodak failed to anticipate the rise of digital photography a decade ago, I'll forgive Grant and Naylor for not anticipating the same over 25 years back.
     
  13. magnusgreel

    magnusgreel First Technician

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    Simon-- There's no actual connection between a photo and the original event in the first place. The photo is just an image that looks like the event. (Physics doesn't care about looks.) So if just having a negative of a picture means you can go back there, it shouldn't matter if it's a first or second generation photo. You might as well say, with the pictures they did go into, such as the skiing holiday, that Lister should have shown up in the photo lab where the skiing pictures were developed. You can only get so technical about these things...

    As for film becoming obselete, I did say I was leaving that aside...

    PS-- That photo lab comparison might not make total sense... the general point's still good though, I think.
     
  14. Simonr1978

    Simonr1978 Deck Sergeant

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    I disagree. A photograph captures the moment it is taken and the camera has to be physically present in order to take the picture, a minute earlier or later and the image is different. A photograph of a picture just reproduces that picture, a week, a month, a year or even a century or more earlier or later it isn't going to change. At all. (Ignoring damage to the original), it doesn't capture the event, just a recording of the image of an event. Plus an original negative can be developed into much, much larger pictures with little or no deterioration. If you do that with a photograph from a magazine cutting the image quality will suffer dramatically and quickly.

    If that works, what would happen if you took a picture of a drawing or a cartoon? It's still just a photo of an image that looks like an event afterall... (Admittedly, that would open up the possibility for Lister of actually attempting to seduce Wilma or Betty though)

    I'd also say that considering this is in an episode in which mutated developing fluid allows you travel backwards in time, physics is pretty irrelevant and at best shaky grounds for any kind of reasonable disagreement.

    Physics might not care about looks, but in photography physicality matters. I can think of any number of pictures which could not have been staged again and where a second or even a fraction of a second more or less would have made all the difference to how the picture looked.

    I'm not saying you can't go back there, I'm saying logically what you'll go back to is what the picture is taken of, which is a page from a magazine, complete with pixilation and flash distortion. This also opens up the question of what would happen if the picture taken was a close up, say of something like an ant. Would the person going into the slide be shrunk to fit? Would they appear as their real relative size (Bearing in mind they can't leave the confines of the photo frame)? Or does it rely on someone developing 100% like for like imitations of real people.

    Well, no. Because no image of the lab is recorded, taken or printed at any stage in the development process and negatives can be developed separately at multiple different and often vastly varying locations and times, completely regardless of the time or date that the original negative was taken. In fact in most respects for normal family phoots, in terms of the process of image-negative-development-photograph the specific lab (Or for that matter the particular camera or lens) is basically irrelevant.

    I don't think it's getting technical to say that there are internal inconsistencies in the episode IMO, I mean if I want to get really technical about it most of Time Slides is frankly nonsensical, paradoxical, historically inaccurate, or all of the previous.

    Yes I know, I was basically agreeing with you.

    That one could be explained by analogue photography maybe being a retro hobby in the Red Dwarf universe. A bit like how firearms made bows obsolete, but Archery is still practiced as a hobby. That doesn't really explain why it's so widespread though.

    As said, I disagree.
     
  15. OurJud

    OurJud Deck Sergeant

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    At the start of Terrorform, why does Kryten need to torch-cut through his arm if comes off by unscrewing?
     
  16. magnusgreel

    magnusgreel First Technician

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    Simon-- I don't think all the minutae about photography is relevant. I'm speaking in science fiction terms. The idea that there's any possible connection between a photo and the original subject of the photo is magical, not SF. Photographs aren't physically linked in any way to the subject. You can't do anything to a photo that will affect the subject, because it's just a picture, an assemblage of pigments or pixels made to look like something.

    Since the whole thing is magic dressed up as SF for laughs, and since they ARE just barely managing to get away with it... let's look at what little logic is there. The "logic" of it doesn't get any more logical or technically feasable than "Take a picture, get a negative, travel in time". Therefore, a photo WITH a negative of a photo WITHOUT a negative should work fine. The magic will work.
     
  17. Hollo_Marx

    Hollo_Marx Catering Officer

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    I'm not in a position to watch the episode now to check, but was he pinned in such a way that he couldn't reach his hand/wrist without first chopping off the arm so he could reposition it? The hand unscrewed at the wrist, but his shoulder/elbow joints might not work the same.
     
  18. Simonr1978

    Simonr1978 Deck Sergeant

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    Fine, it works for you. Not for me and I still feel that it is inconsistent with what little logic there is in the episode, although to be fair it is mostly a nonsensical episode to begin with, albeit one I can personally still enjoy watching in spite of it. On that note though I think we'll have to agree to disagree.
     
  19. I agree with Simon... I like Science Fiction - rather than Fantasy using sci-fi props.
     
  20. sundayforsammy

    sundayforsammy Deck Sergeant

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    What would be fun is a 'Myth Busters' episode associated with all the Red Dwarf science ideas :-) lol I am aware that it would be a bit difficult to do but I think fun anyway.
     

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