Explain That?

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by Hollo_Marx, Sep 28, 2014.

  1. Mardroid

    Mardroid Console Officer

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    While he certainly is incopetent, I think that his Ace alter-ego demonstrates that he actually isn't unintelligent. At one point they were the same person, after all, it was merely something in his past which caused his life, and therefore his attitude and personality to take a whole knew route.

    The novel, in particular, was good at demonstrating why Rimmer is so rubbish at his job. He has no real interest in it, and all his hard work is mainly in 'make work' for revision rather than the revision itself.
     
  2. OurJud

    OurJud Deck Sergeant

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    I don't mean his intelligence is misunderstood, just the man as a whole... which doesn't really have anything to do with my original point, I admit.

    But, I still say the man is not unintelligent. He might be a neurotic, unlikeable, emotional mess, but that doesn't mean he's stupid. He may have failed at everything he's ever attempted, mistake a light switch for a work of art, believe a garbage pod is an alien craft, etc etc, but then on the other hand he doesn't talk like an unintelligent man (Lister and Cat come across as far less intelligent than Rimmer). He speaks eloquently and is clearly not unintelligent in an academic sense, despite his inability to learn Esperanto or pass the Navigation Exam.
     
  3. OurJud

    OurJud Deck Sergeant

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    When Legion stabs himself (in his left hand) why does Lister feel it in his right, when the rest of the crew feel it in their left?

    A simple mistake by CC, possibly, but he does seem to make more of a point that it's his right that was affected, by shaking the pain away (where the others simply hold their hand).
     
  4. Diet_coke

    Diet_coke Science Officer

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    Legion stabs himself in his writing hand, therefore it would affect the others depending on which hand they write with. Lister is the only right handed person of the crew.
     
  5. As a woman, i can't stand the fact that Rimmer raped a woman while she was insensible and calling him "Norman" and *he got away with it*!
     
  6. OurJud

    OurJud Deck Sergeant

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    Really? I find that in itself rather odd, given that 70-90% of the population are right-handed. And why would Kryten be specifically left-handed when he's a mechanoid?

    And furthermore, what makes you think Legion stabs himself in his 'writing hand'. All he says prior to the act is "Watch!"

    This is my third edit now, because the more I think about your answer, the more perplexed I am. Lister isn't the only right-handed crew member at all.

    Cat is right-handed (evident during the meal scene when he picks up his glass of orange juice with his right hand). As is Rimmer (writing with his right hand in the exam scene in series 1).

    Hold on, are you just basing this 'Lister is the only right-handed crew member' on the scene from Psirens where Kryten throws the two Listers a couple of apples to catch, and Rimmer says, "Correct, both right-handed." ??
     
  7. Diet_coke

    Diet_coke Science Officer

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    Rimmer was right handed when he was alive, when he is a hologram is he then left handed due to his files being corrupted when he takes on some of petersons characteristics.
    Cats at both handed as are robots like kryten.
     
  8. Bluey

    Bluey Science Officer

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    Danny writes with his right hand, as can be seen in this video. Interestingly though, he appears to throw with his left hand. In Timeslides, when Lister throws a snowball at him, Cat/Danny catches it with his right hand, then transfers it to his left hand and throws it back.
     
  9. Simonr1978

    Simonr1978 Deck Sergeant

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    I think it shows that he has potential, not just in terms of intelligence but to also be brave, charming and charismatic. All aspects that I think are not realised in our Rimmer.

    I'd also say that Ace was not our Rimmer's alter-ego, he was an alternative Rimmer with an alternative upbringing. Whilst our Rimmer left to become Ace, we've got no real idea of how well he did in that role or how long he lasted.

    I tend to avoid drawing too many parallels between the novels and the TV series as they are IIRC largely regarded as separate continuities, but (Accepting this as well as it's being quite some time since I read them) my recollection was that at least one reason for Rimmer's failure is stated that he's just not cut out to be the Officer that he dreams of being and that if he came to terms with that and redirected his energies elsewhere he'd have lived a happier life.

    There's another bit where they talk about young Rimmer's talent for Geography which completely collapsed when the subject went beyond colouring in maps and drawings of glaciers and he needed to actually know and understand the subject.

    This kind of goes back to what I said initially which was that none of the rest of the crew were particularly knowledgeable (Rather than intelligent). I personally think that still stands, for our Rimmer at least. He might have the potential, with a changed upbringing, but that was not realised in our Rimmer.

    I think he's very well understood. ;-)

    I think his inability to retain and apply almost any sort of learning in pretty much any kind of practical or theoretical circumstance is a pretty clear indication of his lack of what I'll call intelligence at any rate (I'm not sure if it fits a strict dictionary definition and I'm not particularly inclined to look it up at the moment to be honest). I'd also be very wary of judging anyone on the basis that they sound intelligent when they talk. I've worked with far too many people over the years who, if you take how they talk on face value, must have been the most intelligent, capable, conscientious and hard working employees the company has ever had, the reality however... ;-)

    Just because Rimmer is well spoken doesn't mean for a second that this isn't hiding the reality that he's a total plank.
     
  10. Simonr1978

    Simonr1978 Deck Sergeant

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    Perhaps all the years alone have meant that Legion is slightly imperfect himself and the 1/4 of him that was Lister transmitted the pain to the wrong part?

    On that matter though, that scene never really made sense to me. If Legion is a gestalt taking his personality, moods and feelings from those available, why does that mean that any pain he alone receives is felt by them? I assume that for some reason that isn't stated the facilities in the Institute transmitted the pain to the crew somehow (Although this isn't stated at any point), but in that case why didn't Kryten, Cat and Rimmer feel the pain of Lister's impending peritonitis? Afterall, if they feel Legion's pain and Legion's feeling Lister's pain, they all should feel it.
     
  11. OurJud

    OurJud Deck Sergeant

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    I think what we're doing here is defining 'intelligent' in different ways.

    If someone can talk as eloquently and articulate as Rimmer, and display the command of words he does, he can't possibly be 'unintelligent'. That kind of eloquence and articulation can't just be faked.

    He may be 'stupid', but that's not the same as unintelligent.

    Anyway, we're going round in circles now so I'm done :-D
     
  12. Simonr1978

    Simonr1978 Deck Sergeant

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    Having read this I decided that I would look up the word to make sure I wasn't using it incorrectly myself, a pretty typical definition was "The ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills". I think it's pretty clear from our Rimmer's failings that his strengths do not lie in the ability to acquire and apply either knowledge or skill, throughout Red Dwarf he demonstrates neither despite having had plenty of time and opportunity to do so.

    Of course it can, actors do it all the time. Outside of that eloquence and articulation can be learned from an individual's upbringing with little necessary indication of intelligence or knowledge, a person's speaking style, dialect and to a degree the kind of language they use can all be picked up through copying and mimicry of the adults around them, not least of which their parents and their social circle. Rimmer's (Surrogate or step- we now know) father was a school teacher or college lecturer so we can presume from what little we've seen of him seems a reasonably articulate and eloquent man, is it really that much of a stretch to suggest that Rimmer's style and mannerisms are probably largely a reflection of the way his father spoke around him?

    Yes it is, literally, the two words are synonyms of one another.

    OK then.
     
  13. there's a difference between intelligence and knowledge. You can be highly intelligent and yet lack knowledge of something you haven't learned about.
     
  14. Strat-tastic

    Strat-tastic Flight Co-Ordinator

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    In White Hole, why does Holly shut down all power to preserve run time? Lister & Cat wouldn't be able to survive for long without bare minimum life support so there would be no point for Holly to exist anyway. It can't be explained by stupidity so why?
     
  15. Diet_coke

    Diet_coke Science Officer

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    I thought this was dealt with in the episode. That is why they had the whole scene where they want Rimmer to lay down his life for the good of the crew. :roll:
     
  16. Strat-tastic

    Strat-tastic Flight Co-Ordinator

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    Wasn't that just to extend the limited lifespan a little further, or am I thinking of something else?
     
  17. "without your drain on the power, they might last six"

    Yes, it was.
     
  18. Strat-tastic

    Strat-tastic Flight Co-Ordinator

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    Thanks Melanie, Harry.

    I think I thought that because when the power first goes down...


    No mention of emergency back up at that point, just ALL power. It's only later we establish that fact...

    I suppose I remember the initial lines of dialogue better than the later ones. Ho hum. As you were :-)
     
  19. I wonder how RD would be remembered today if Craig had been convicted. I doubt many people would admit to watching it, for fear of being branded as supporting a criminal. This wouldn't be The Naked Gun where OJ Simpson only had a minor role.
     
  20. Diet_coke

    Diet_coke Science Officer

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    I thought he was found guilty for all the drugs he did?
     

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