Hogey...a future regular?

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by bedfordfalls, Nov 9, 2012.

  1. onephatsmegger

    onephatsmegger Second Technician

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    I think they may have rolled out Hogey as a teaser for possible future appearances. Twitter last night and today has been abuzz with people mentioning Hogey. I myself was on the phone to Sky earlier, and I told the agent in a Spanish accent that she 'keeled my brother,' so the little guy has had an effect on me already.

    The reaction to the introduction of characters like Dwayne Dibbley and Ace Rimmer caused the same kind of stir pre-internet times, and they were brought back to greater or lesser effect, depending on your point of view. I'd like to see Hogey back, but whether they can find a good character arc for him and rid him of his obsession to duel his nemeses across time and space is another thing.
     
  2. ShrunkenPixel

    ShrunkenPixel Second Technician

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    It's a pretty innocent accent. Nothing wrong with it whatsoever :-)

    As I have already pointed out on this forum, Hogie reminded me of Super Mario, not of Italians in general. Taking it a stage further, Super Mario himself has had a relatively trouble-free existence for the last 30-odd years. If people seriously took offence with that accent Nintendo wouldn't still be getting away with it today.

    While I agree that accents can be done in bad taste depending on individual political situations, this wasn't the case here. All there was, that I saw, was a fun character with a fun appearance and fun accent. I'd say pretty much the same thing about Taiwan Tony, in fact any other situation accents are used - unless it's clear that offence can easily be taken due to context.

    And in terms of accents being exaggerated and parodied, I have to say that there's no accent truly free of this. British actors in the US are frequently encouraged to 'put-on' a heavy pseudo-British accent simply because it it's easier for Americans to understand than true British accents (such as Geordie, Cockney, Liverpudlian and the like). I find it hilarious when I see an episode of "Nanny 911" and witness the hilarious accents... it's not done in a hateful way. Neither is Hogie's Italian, and that's all that matters.
     
  3. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    I'm not going to get too in depth into this again but I will note once again that the intention of Doug Naylor has been clarified with regards to TT: He was supposed to be an offensive stereotype. The joke relied on that. If you didn't get that, then I'm afraid the intention of the joke passed you by too...which is what concerned most of us who were disturbed by Doug's choice of material. It wasn't clear enough in its intentions.

    Hogey clearly wasn't designed in the same way, anymore than the French vending machine was (in fact the vending machone wasn't even scripted as French - it appears ot have been ad-libbed on the night). That doesn't mean Sim isn't entitled to be offended but them but these mild and in Hogey's case ambiguous accents shouldn't be confused with the TT stuff which went way beyond that and to be honest I think him comparing them directly cheapens the valid arguments that people, including Sim, have against TT, which go way beyond just laughing at a "hilarious accent".
     
  4. dodgebizkit

    dodgebizkit Deck Sergeant

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    LOL someone mentions racism and Bedfordfalls doesn't call them obsessed? He's obsessed with calling people obsessed with racism.

    If any accent used in the show is racist, then Cat and Kryten are being racist against north Americans by faking their accent.
    Aren't there a few scenes where American pronunciation has been the pay-off of a joke? Charades, radio-active process (holly), something that Confidence said, that I can't remember exactly?
     
  5. ShrunkenPixel

    ShrunkenPixel Second Technician

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    You really believe that, don't you :-)

    There's no way that you're interpreting Doug's quotes the right way. There's no way the show could use real swear words, so they invent fake ones (smeg, goit etc) which exist in-universe to serve the purpose. The same thing is true with TT.

    There's no way that Doug purposefully tried to be offensive with TT. What he did was 'simulate' that kind of situation. TT wasn't supposed to cause 'us' to be offended, the idea is that any offence is in-universe. Clear enough for us to pick-up on, but it wasn't the intention that viewers get upset about it.

    Let's say "Sesame Street" wanted to educate children about the problems with racism. They'd probably use a blue or green puppet. They definitely wouldn't pick anything remotely resembling an Afro-Carribean or Muslim. It's clear what the message is, but nobody in the real world is going to get upset as nobody's being victimised.

    Doug Naylor wouldn't have a job anymore if he deliberately victimised or offended his viewers, the idea is barking mad :shock:
     
  6. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    Once again, it gives me no pleasure to have to inform you that Americans are not a race. The same goes for Canadians. Bit like the French in that respect!
    I don't know why I bother though since you're rapidly turning into Reznor on here, even to the extent of adopting his posting mannerisms.
    Perhaps together you might catch that Space Weevel!

    Firstly I'm not "interpreting Doug's quotes" at all. I'm relating the tweet of the Script Editor who stated "the joke being he's (Taiwan Tony) a massive stereotype". You don't need to explain that joke to me because it isn't me that's missing the point (or appearing to) by posting things like:

    "All there was, that I saw, was a fun character with a fun appearance and fun accent."

    Doug Naylor didn't design or write TT to be "a fun character with a fun appearance and fun accent." he wrote him to be "a massive stereotype".

    His thinking evidently, was that his audience would see the irony in characters asking about racism to a racist stereotype and not actually knowing that he was one. It's the kind of thing South Park does very well by the very nature of it being a cartoon with deliberately exaggerated characters.

    Nobody on this forum was saying that Doug Naylor was racist or that he set out to offend viewers (as you seem to have misinterpreted my post above as saying). we are saying that, with a joke like this you have to be very aware that it isn't going to get misinterpreted and there is more than enough evidence both here and elsewhere that it was. There is also the very real danger that people not accustomed with Doug Naylor or Red Dwarf in general might tune in and take offense to what, without prior knowledge, can easily be seen as a regression to 1970's style comedy.

    If you want to take this up with me further, however, I suggest either reading the exiting thread for the episode in question or discussing it via PMs, not derailing another thread about it as others are already trying their best to do.
     
  7. suekay87

    suekay87 First Technician

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    ...so racism's wrong, but national and ethnic prejudice are a-ok?
     
  8. dodgebizkit

    dodgebizkit Deck Sergeant

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    Says the guy who claims that Asian food is a race xD Asian race was never mentioned with Taiwan Tony. Just that Taiwan is a bit Chinesey, the same as English is a bit Americanny, which is not an offensive thing to say (though I know a lot of Scotsmen who would find "Scottish is a bit Englishy" offensive :P)

    I'm out, me and Reznor have a space-weevil to catch, I mean, at least WE have a chance :P :-D


    [/trollin']
     
  9. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    A pity that I didn't say any of that if you read my words clearly.

    Nice to see you admitting to being little more than a troll though (for the second time). It is actually against the forum's policies but I suppose its what your failed arguments have ultimately reduced you to.

    Do me a favour and don't reply to any more of my posts be they about this or any other matter. You clearly have nothing worthwhile to add to them and I certainly have no wish to discuss them with people who behave like children.

    Not really, but neither are they the same thing. What part of me wasn't clear about that when I pointed out the difference? Are you accusing Doug of national and ethnic prejudice? I'm certainly not so I presume one of us must be for you to bring it up.

    These matters have already been discussed in the Fathers and Suns thread. I see no sense in retreading them here when the views of all concerned are preserved in that part of the forum.
     
  10. dodgebizkit

    dodgebizkit Deck Sergeant

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    If I was an actual troll I would probably have been banned ;-)

    I just find it ridiculous that anyone would find anything in RD offensive, period.

    If Hogey is re-used, it would be nice to see him as a more serious threat rather than a cartoon character type enemy, simulants that are pure evil and done correctly are amazing, the bad guys don't have to be funny as long as they lead the main guys to be in funny situations. If Hogey comes for a real fight that would be good. If not, then I'd prefer them to leave it. It was cool to have him as a cartoony comedy silly character once, but I like red dwarf to take the story seriously and add comedy to it rather than make the story silly in the hope that it would be funny, thankfully that doesn't happen too much, but... Look at Pete.
     
  11. suekay87

    suekay87 First Technician

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    I have not found anything in Red Dwarf to be racist, however there seems to be a feeling on these forums that Taiwan Tony was offensive whereas the French machine and other accents of caucasian were not. IMO you can't find one offensive and not the others, unless you believe discrimination against other groups the same colour as yourself is okay (presuming the people offended by Taiwan Tony are caucasian or live in a predominantly caucasian country).

    The gist of what I've been saying is that personally I found none of it offensive, but I can't understand how some people would find TT offensive but not the French machine, or the Cat and Kryten's accents, or Hogeys for that.
     
  12. dodgebizkit

    dodgebizkit Deck Sergeant

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    YES! ^ this.


    Back to Hogey though... Did anyone else think that they Molly D was cool? I'd like to see some cool stories with such things now that the story of it has been set up, like for it to be used again at some point, even if not as that exact gun but that same technology. Cat's explanation of it being better than Kryten's was a classic moment :-D
     
  13. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    Your use of "The French machine and other accents of caucasian" is an extremely awkward expression with all kinds of things wrong with it but it does shed some light on why you don't seem to see the difference if that's your logical starting point.

    Firstly, and I apologise if this is patronising but your phrasing leaves me little alternative but to clarify it for you: a french accent does not imply a particular race, let alone a finitely "causcasian" one. Hell, if you asked me to name a famous Frenchman the first one I'd come up with was Thierry Henry...see why you can't jump to the conclusion that French = White?
    That's the first thing that makes it different: The French dispenser's accent could have belonged to anyone (well, anyone French but we'll get to that in a moment) nothing, as you rightly say, that would have offended a French person, whether they knew the context or not.
    The French vending machine also had a fairly normal, relaxed, only slightly overaccented French accent. I'm sure it would have been recognisable as fake to a native French speaker but the point is that it wasn't ridiculously OTT like Taiwan Tony was and all I can say is that if people drew advanced states of laughter from the accent instead of the jokes then God help them if they ever have to live in France. :roll:

    Hoguey on the other hand had a sort of weird amalgamation accent mixed with word confusion that wasn't quite Spanish, wasn't quite Italian and wasn't quite anything really. it was OTT but not in the sense of mocking or parodying any particular race or even country (as someone else has pointed out its largely parodying an existing movie).

    Taiwan Tony on the other hand had the most (deliberately) ridiculously absurd of stereotypical asian accents, the "Ah-so, Ah-so, me likey the flied lice" kind of thing that Krusty the Clown left people open mouthed at in the Simpsons (and indeed British television sitcoms revelled in producing in the 1970s). it was the premise of the ironic joke that he be a huge (negative) stereotype.
    As the Simpsons knew, however, you have to be very careful doing that kind of shtick and make absolutely clear your intentions if any ambiguity might exist (which it absolutely did).

    Why? Well maybe you're too young to remember so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and let popular fan site Ganymede and Titan make that point in their review of "Dear Dave" rather than restating it myself. One reason (there are others) is that:

    I think that's also some good advice in terms of discussing it further in this topic. There's a lot more discussion of it in the 'Dear Dave' thread where people like Freeborn have expressed it far more eloquently than I. I don't know how many more times we can express it in a way that people will understand...it does rather rely on people wanting to understand which I've become convinced that some people around here don't. Some things just are different because of weighted cultural and historical reasons. It's no use comparing apples with oranges just because both are fruit.
    Suffice to say. This is not about "us and them", double standards in comedy, or Red Dwarf being a big old racist (which it clearly isn't) its about sensitivity, clarity and understanding: things many people felt were absent in the TT material, to the show's overall detriment (always the real reason why people get annoyed around here - we care about the show). These are three qualities that are important in entertainment of all sorts, particularly comedy and sadly, some of us feel they missed the mark in F&S.

    Now then, back to that Scrappy Doo argument...he was terrible, Ally, are you insane? ;-)
     
  14. PFMC84

    PFMC84 Catering Officer

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    Am I the only one who didn't like the character of Hogey, thought his presence and story was completely unfunny and would be happy if we never see him again in Red Dwarf's future?
     
  15. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    Bah, I knew someone would say it better than me while I was typing.

    A right set of eloquent buggers we have around here. :P
     
  16. dodgebizkit

    dodgebizkit Deck Sergeant

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    I also found him kind of unfunny... Not to the point of terrible, but very much like a kiddish cartoony type of bad guy rather than a fearsome simulant, and I didn't find it funny. Buffoons are simply not funny characters in RD where you expect intelligent writing, however he did lead to some good jokes so he wasn't all bad. I hope that he can be put to some good use, because I like that matter gun (fan of Portal :-D )
     
  17. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    Can I just point out (again) that Hogey isn't a simulant. This is another point that some people seem to be choosing to ignore.

    He's referred to as a "rogue droid". He's no more a simulant that Able was. Why would Rimmer bother telling him about the dangers of simulants if he was one?

    I wonder if all the build up with people viewing him in previews and assuming he was a deadly simulant led to the negative reaction towards him in some. The idea that he was a simulant was simply part of the misdirection.
     
  18. Reznor

    Reznor Guest

    lol aww what does little bedford want more *pats*?? :P
    and first you say i'm the space weevil yet now both of us have to catch one?
    hah way to contradict yourself again
    can we catch you? the circus midget :-D
     
  19. BruceFivesyth

    BruceFivesyth Third Technician

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    Can't believe another thread has been waylaid by this ridiculous racism discussion.

    Anyway, this character should certainly never be seen again. Badly written and acted.

    Dwarf was at its best when the world seemed largely unpopulated and the writers had to use their ingenuity to craft plots. It shouldn't have wacky comedy characters who would be more at home in children's TV programs popping up on a regular basis.
     
  20. simulant37

    simulant37 Science Officer

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    True.
     

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