Hogey...a future regular?

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by bedfordfalls, Nov 9, 2012.

  1. SleepySoul

    SleepySoul Third Technician

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    Wouldn't mind seeing him again, popping up in an episode inviting the crew to a game of mini/crazy golf on an abandoned 'entertainment ship'. They get bored (or finish the game) then find a Crystal Maze/Fort Bouyard type area and that's where the fun starts...
     
  2. Mardroid

    Mardroid Console Officer

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    I guess the confusion is understandable in that his appearance was somewhat reminiscent of simulants of the past. Particularly the versions we saw in Justice and Beyond a Joke. I actually took him to be a simulant at the start of the episode, and was a tad irritated at his daft depiction and the Dwarf crew-members dismissal of him.

    It became clearer after Hoagey's mention of the map and the simulant ship, and the Dwarfers' reaction to the fact real simulants might be on his tail* that they were separate, and rather more dangerous beings. A bit of clever misdirection as you say.

    Simulants are described as droids and robots in the past so I guess, simulants are rogue droids. But not all rogue droids are simulants, and Hoagey is in that category. It's all about what they were created for, I guess, simulants being specifically made to be soldiers or (in Last Human's case) security guards and being part biological in nature. I.e. a rebellious mechanoid (or at least one that broke his original programming and gave up service to humanity, which doesn't mean they'd all be antagonistic) would be a rogue droid, but not a simulant. Hudzen 10 springs to mind, although he isn't so much rogue, in the rebelling from humanity sense as just completely insane. A whole bunch of rogue droids, and rogue droid parts make an appearance in the novel Last Human..

    Don't mind me. I like my robots.

    *Although it took them a while to work out that was who was attacking them. A bit of a continuity issue there, or they're just very thick.
     
  3. ShrunkenPixel

    ShrunkenPixel Second Technician

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    I think Hogey might be a simulant, but it's not confirmed as (as you said) he's only referred to as a droid.

    The reasons why he could be a simulant are clear - he resembles the simulants seen in previous episodes, and since Lister did infact kill the "Justice" simulant you've got that link-back where it's feasible Hogey may have been our for revenge, even though he's not quite as obviously evil or ruthless as the other simulants seen in the episode.

    Us long-term fans would put two and two together pretty quickly. New fans might have struggled a bit. If we're introduced to a simulant right at the start that is nothing like the simulants seen for the remainder of the episode, it would have interfered with the clear effort that went into establishing just how ruthless and evil the later simulants were.

    Then again, Hogey might have started out on script as a simulant, and then changed down the line to a droid for these reasons. I don't think "droid" sounds as specific and individual as "simulant" or "mechanoid", so it's probably just a term wheeled out to describe any kind of (at least partially) robotic individual that doesn't clearly fit into any specific category, or individuals from a throwaway robotic race.
     
  4. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    Actually the difference between (an)droids and simulants is made pretty clear from the outset in the first episode to feature a simulant: Justice.

    Kryten: With respect, sir, they are not androids, they are simulants.
    Cat: What's the difference?
    Kryten: Well, the basic difference is that an android will never rip off a human's head and spit down his neck.


    Later they are described as "Biomechanical killers" suggesting a crossbreed of android and human. This idea is taken further in The Beginning when we see that they appear to have human organs inside them, whereas androids only have a partly organic brain (DNA).

    We're absolutely supposed to think that Hogey is a Simulant at the outset of the episode, but its only misdirection and it seems strange to me that having watched the whole episode some people are still insisting he's a silly character because "a simulant wouldn't be like that".

    No it wouldn't. But then hogey isn't a simulant.

    Now, here's an interesting question: Why do some Simulants talk normally yet others have that distinctive sounding synthetic voice. Both Crawford and the female sim from series 6 had it yet all the male simulants we've met don't. However the female members of the simulant council didn't have it either.

    Confusing. :?
     
  5. mingle

    mingle Third Technician

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    It think it's a case of "Four's company, five's a crowd"...

    Even Kochanski spoiled the magic of the earlier series.
     
  6. Deviblue

    Deviblue Second Technician

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    Would any self respecting simulant have a Robo-Combover as bad as Hogeys?
     
  7. Ally1990

    Ally1990 First Technician

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    Maybe he could be like the janitor Scruffy from Futurama. Even so often they see him and wonder who he is.

    "Who are you?"
    "Hogey... you keel my brother?"
     
  8. Freeborn

    Freeborn Flight Co-Ordinator

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    I would agree that using Hogey sparingly in future series' could potentially work quite well, but having him as a full-time regular would be a little too much, I think. I really loved that he's already well known by the crew and that many encounters have been had during 'the lost years of Red Dwarf', if you will. And I'd so I'd love to see them bump into him again - mid-adventure - every now and then. Or as someone else mentioned for them to call in a favour from him every now and then (and/or vice versa).


    Well, the character is meant to be Spanish, the actor playing said character however, is clearly not. So basically what you're actually saying is that it definitely wasn't a [convincing] Spanish accent. ;-)

    In all seriousness though the guy who played Inigo Montoya (Mandy Patinkin) sounded about as Spanish as Marlon Brado sounded Mexican in Viva Zapata. Although to be fair I've heard much less convincing accents. Neither of the above mentioned were quite as bad as Sean Connery's generic accent in...well anything he's ever been in ever. ;-)

    What is somewhat (unintentionally) satirical about these bad or OTT accents is that they then tend to influence other terrible accents. For example, Caspian's "Spanish" accent in The 'Chronicles Of Narnia: Prince Caspian' was apparently modelled on the accent Mandy Patinkin's Inigo Montoya accent.

    Spanish is actually one of my favourite accents, one of ex girlfriends has such a luuurvely accent. Hogey however just sounded...well, kinda funny, in a cartoonish, multi-universal kind of way. But yeah, it certainly does seem to have been slightly influenced by some slightly dodgy Hollywood-type 'Spanish' accents. And by "dodgy" I don't mean necessarily offensive, just a bit crap (unconvincing). :lol:

    Either way, I do like Hogey's silly cartoon voice and eclectic accent. I thought it worked very well for the character. Also, perhaps in this case - and this is just a geeky tongue-in-cheek theory so don't take it too seriously - it may well be that Hogey (the character not the actor) was indeed quite literally influenced by the accent in 'The Princess Bride. It could be one of his favourite movies, you know?

    Also, perhaps the line "The likes of which you've never seen" may or may not have been influenced by another of Hogey's favourite movies too. Frankenstein? Or Demolition Man perhaps? :-)
     
  9. Freeborn

    Freeborn Flight Co-Ordinator

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    Warning; If you're sick of the whole "Taiwan Tony" discussion then...skip to The End. :-)


    ...As for this quite baffling, unintentionally satirical - yet slightly disturbing discussion about the one the crew call "Taiwan Tony", I'm going to start by trying to leave my personal opinions to one side (until later in the post), and instead focus on what I feel to be the empirical facts [Although I suppose I could still be wrong about certain things and am more than happy to be proven as such by Doug or someone else in the know];

    So, The Dwarfers were asking a vending machine [with AI] if it thought Chinese Whispers is racist.

    The intended 'funny' twist here is that much to the crew's apparent ignorance - and seemingly unbeknown to the machine itself - it is, in and of itself a massively inappropriate racial stereotype.

    THAT'S THE JOKE!

    The main concerns that were raised on this and other forums were simply that many of us felt that the intentions of that joke were not made very clear. Which has unfortunately now been proven to be true on multi-faceted levels - Much more so than I ever expected to be honest. In fact I personally find the levels of...misinterpretation and misunderstandings quite disparing.

    Anyway, for whatever reason, that particular vending machine has been programmed to be that way, or perhaps it has a major technical glitch in it's AI programming..*shrugs*.

    Okay, the following is just my geeky fan theory; Perhaps it was the work of a certain naive technician who didn't even realise he was programming the machine to be a blatant racial stereotype.

    Or, alternatively, it may have just been some other kind of technical glitch - possibly caused by a certain vending machine repair man, and which never got reported to the scutters. In a similar way to that of the series 1 vending machine having a lisp. Although obviously there is a world of difference between a machine having a lisp and being a racial stereotype. But my point is these are both odd characteristics that, for whatever reason are apparent in these machines. And to deny that they exist is just odd.

    For me personally, now that Doug's intentions have been made crystal clear, and I've had time to mull it over, I actually feel this gag about silly stereotypes and the crew's naivety could've potentially been a very good one.If the intentions had been made a bit more clear. Which they clearly were not. And every time someone denies that the character was an inappropriate and offensive racial stereotype it just further proves this fact.

    I can only assume that Doug merely assumed that the intentions were fairly obvious. And perhaps in a perfect better world that may be true. But as things stand I feel it did need to be explained a little more - or dumbed down for us, if you will. ;-)

    As for the misguided views some have been putting across regarding double standards, or that it's only white people who raised concern about this issue, *sigh* as I've mentioned before my British/Chinese friend's grandmother initially found the TT scene quite offensive.

    However, now that she understands the intentions, rather than being offended she just feels, as myself and others do, that no malice was intended, but the gag simply wasn't made very clear. And that some people, regardless of the intentions will unfortunately be laughing for the wrong reasons, much like some laugh with Al Murray's Pub Landlord character, as opposed to laughing at him.

    Although in Al Murray's case I personally feel it's made pretty obvious that the character is meant in this spoofy, satirical way. But the fact is many obviously do not - and (in some cases) that's because all the ridiculous character traits that most of us are laughing at, are actually traits that some people can genuinely personally relate too. Sad but true.

    Hogey's silly cartoon voice and slightly ambiguous accent on the other hand can not seriously be compared to a character of whom was quite literally intended to be recognised (by the viewers, not the crew) as being an inappropriate racial stereotype.

    Context is everything here.

    As for the machine with the French accent. I think there are a few different ways of looking at this. It seems to me that there may be many vending machines on the Red Dwarf ship with various different accents. But it's also clear that the one the crew call "Taiwan Tony" was specifically brimming over with ignorant stereotype mannerisms. Non of which are apparent in the vending machine with the French accent. And why would they be? That would make no sense at all, as the script for Dear Dave doesn't call for it.

    Although one may argue that the accent was a teensey weensey bit crap/unconvincing, but not massively so. I mean, the character was clearly not played by a French actress but it was reasonable enough, I thought. Certainly no worse, in my opinion, than that of the afore mentioned actor who played Inigo Montoyo in The Princess Bride. And no I don't find that accent offensive either. Why would I?

    I suppose another point could be made though is that some people perceive the French accent as being quite a sexy accent - but I think that's less a stereotype and more a matter of personal taste which the media picked up on over the years. I myself have always loved the French accent, along with Italian, Scottish, Irish, Mexican/Lebanese [Salma Hayek for example...mmm..ahem]. So this may or may not have played into that whole scene. But it could've worked with any perceived sexy accent. Whereas "Taiwan Tony" was quite literally intended to be a specifically inappropriate racial stereotype.

    So yeah I find the comparisons a little odd to say the least.

    Then there is the other aspect to this which jmc200 perfectly pointed out in his last post. Certain stereotypes are considered more offensive than others for very logical and specific reasons. I have extended family members of mixed heritage, including an aunt (and some cousins) of African heritage, as well as some adopted African cousin. And yeah it's far more likely for me to be offended by some of the ridiculous and offensive racial stereotypes that still persist in that sense, and of which have and still do get used in some extremely unsavoury ways to this day.

    Whereas I personally couldn't care less if one falsely perceives me as being a stuck-up, tea drinking, bad-teeth having, Cricket playing, Bowler-hat-wearing, pretentious, posh-accent-pursuing, Beef eating, umbrella-carrying, Royal family worshipping, Boiled food-munching, constantly rain soaked, overly reserved - alcoholic English snob. :lol:

    I have a bit of Scottish in me too, as my granddad was Scottish. And personally I wouldn't be as offended by some of the silly Scottish stereotypes either.

    That's not to say other's don't have a right to be offended by such British [Or English and Scottish if you must] stereotypes, but it would be insincere and somewhat ignorant to pretend that everything is the same/equal worldwide. Because that's simply not true. This much at very least is not a matter of opinion, it's a basic fact.

    But yeah, all that aside, for me personally the most concerning thing in all these discussion is that some people have been denying even the basic fact that the "Taiwan Tony" character is intentionally meant to be viewed as an inappropriate racial stereotype. This leaves me feeling quite worried and upset and to be honest. As I thought we could at very least agree about that by this point.

    I do hope Doug goes into this on the DVD to some degree! - then we can all have done with it once and for all. :lol:

    The End.

    Anyway, on a slightly more argumentative note [C major] - oh I'm sorry did I say "argumentative? I meant "augmented";


    Agreed! That little dude was awesome! What kind of Scooby Doo fan doesn't like Scrappy!? It's preposterous I tells ya!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG8dgN6x2EA

    ;-)

    ...So, anyway..yeah, as I mentioned in my last post I would personally love to see the returnuth of Hogey the Rogey. I found him to be a most entertaining character indeed. :-)
     
  10. djmcbell

    djmcbell Supply Officer

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    Thought he was supposed to be doing a Mexican accent...

    Anyway, Hogey (which I guess is his official spelling, and not Hoagie as I've been assuming). Should he return? He has appeared on the Dwarf before, just not on the show. He's part of the unseen background that has suddenly been thrust into the frame, just as the vending machines were. Before they appeared in this new incarnation (Taiwan Tony et al) they were "there but not there" - we knew there were vending machines (Rimmer and Lister repaired them) but as they hadn't been used (well, aside from in teeny tiny doses in previous series) we never paid attention to them. They were scenery.

    As was Hogey. We know life for the crew goes on between episodes. They fight evil mutants we never see. They loot derelicts that aren't in the episodes, sometimes referenced with the infamous mint imperial the dead captain had in his mouth which Lister gave to the Cat, or the games looted. Likewise, duels with a certain simulant/android/stirmaster (or whatever Hogey is). They go on - we know they go on. But now Hogey has been thrust into the spotlight.

    So, why not have Hogey reappear? I have to say that I wasn't keen on his character in The Beginning, but his role was minor. He could reappear again, so long as he stayed true to his character and only appeared from time to time - no more than a single episode per series. There could be some interesting places to go with his character, so long as he - and the crew - stay in character.

    I'll quickly reference Farscape, and the villain Scorpius, as a great character who ultimately was neutered. A perfect evil genius, he would appear fleetingly. That was part of his general evil "aura" - he'd pop up once in a blue moon, rather than being a Wile E Coyote villain who'd try to capture the crew, and fail at every juncture. That was until season 4, where he became part of the crew and worked alongside them, totally destroying his character and making him into, basically, someone else. At the same time, the show lost the villain who had stalked the crew unerringly.

    This is what I wouldn't want to happen with Hogey, if he were to come back, for both the show's sake and for the sake of his character.
     
  11. Angelic_Storm

    Angelic_Storm Catering Officer

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    But the crew (at least in series 7) was only 4, as Kochanski replaced Rimmer. So it wasn't the number of crew members that was the problem, it was that the chemistry and dynamic between the crew members changed, in a negative way which was detrimental to the show. Kochanski was also a regular character from series 7 onwards, so I don't think the situation is really comparable with a character who may only pop up maybe once or twice more in the show's lifetime. To that end, I wouldn't mind if Hogey came back, though certainly not as a series regular. But I liked his character enough in "The Beginning", that I have no aversion to the idea that he may appear again in another episode or two.

    I have to say, that I'm quite baffled at the negative attitudes some here have to the mere idea of guest characters, when going all the way back to series 1, there was guest characters (in Waiting For God, and Confidence & Paranoia). Since the first series', there have been guest characters in every single series of Red Dwarf, so I can't see why this is being treated as being any different to what has already come before in the series.
     
  12. suekay87

    suekay87 First Technician

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    I think for Red Dwarf 4 is the magic number, supported by 1 or 2 recurring characters (Holly and Kochanski) and followed up by a bank of guest stars.

    I do agree there should be episodes with just the 4 main characters and no-one else, but I enjoy the episodes with guest stars too :-)

    It's still a lonely existence for them, even if there are other 'people' about.

    It could be the closer to earth they're getting (we have no way to gauge the progress they've made given all the futzing with the timeline and whatnot) the more populated space gets :-)
     
  13. suekay87

    suekay87 First Technician

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    Best post I've read on this particular subject, and I'm inclined to agree :-)
     
  14. Ant E

    Ant E Flight Co-Ordinator

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    Racist? Why do people who scream RACISM at the most stupid non racist things think they can be offended on everyone else's behalf?
     
  15. pad_ehh

    pad_ehh Catering Officer

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    I certainly don't have a problem with guest starts, I actively encourage them as we would get bored of the show if it was always just the 4 guys! It's just that the actual character of Hogey I found unfunny. The done to death one liner joke was not amusing at all and maybe peoples perception of him could have been much better if his character was written better. Instead of just having him appear and we all were just expected to accept him, perhaps an episode could have been made where the crew come across him, befriend him but don't fully trust him, then find out he's a bumbling idiot so they let him hang around for a bit when he calls. A part of the episode could have even involved Kryten getting jealous again that the crew would like another non-human character over him and he sabotaged the crews attempts to like Hogey. A future episode/appearance could involve Hogey and Kryten forced to work together to survive, leading Kryten to ultimately accept him and tolerate him but still with the odd snide comment. That would have been better than just shoving him to the fore unannounced and expect instant acceptance and liking of him. That's all I'm saying.
     
  16. Freeborn

    Freeborn Flight Co-Ordinator

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    I'm not completely sure if you mean you agree with the main bulk of my post or just the part you quoted. But in my defence I'm feeling a bit drained today, so it may have just gone over my head.

    But either way, thanks. :-D

    And the prize for "The most obvious 'trolling' of 2012" goes tooo...

    At least I hope you're just 'trolling'. :?
     
  17. Rue_Dwarf

    Rue_Dwarf Supply Officer

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    Note in passing; one thing that gets me here... It seems that, if *any* sort of accent besides English or American comes in, the 'racism' topic comes up again... :/ I just wonder, are they going to be allowed to use any accent aside from the aforementioned without something coming up? I realise it's likely because they are being portrayed by British actors, but perhaps they could not find appropriate foreign actors for roles, OR, like with VM23, they could have been late additions to add another level of character after casting. :/ I mean, there have been mentions in the past series about, for example, the Germans and their holiday habits, or how being locked in the room with 'French mates' forever would be hell. I dunno, maybe I'm just starting to tire of the subject a little :/ Never mind. :-p

    BACK ON TOPIC for me~

    I'd like to see Hogey pop up again for one, maybe two episodes; one if he became the main focus of an episode, and two maybe if he appeared in passing. :-p I think he is a fun little diversion, and given the familiarity he has with the crew, it would be in-keeping with the current circumstance :-)
     
  18. simulant37

    simulant37 Science Officer

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    Wot? EVERYONE hates Scrappy Doo!! Annoying odious creation!!!
     
  19. Rue_Dwarf

    Rue_Dwarf Supply Officer

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    I will have to agree with Sim on this point... >____> I wanted nothing more than to put Scrappy in a bucket of mouldy mushy peas, place him behind a donkey and tickle its hind-quarters from afar with a duster so it booted the bucket into orbit~
     
  20. acerimmer_165

    acerimmer_165 Supply Officer

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    Agreed! Actually, I remember a really awful, wacky comedy character in the beginning of series II who I'm really glad that they didn't bring back on a regular bas.... Oh wait.
     

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