How depressing it is...

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by Seymour_Clufley, Mar 24, 2015.

  1. RECTUMfacedPYGMY

    RECTUMfacedPYGMY Catering Officer

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    Agreed I enjoyed x but it not on par with Red dwarf 5 not even close to that outstanding series
    And you can't say it's on par with 1 to 6. It's not been the same since Rob left and the sad think
    Is he's not coming back. It was a partnership.
     
  2. Clarence

    Clarence First Technician

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    true but even if they did get back together their is no guarantee of quality. Look at most talented artists, whether they are musicians, film directors, writers, artists and many seem to have a purple patch when their work is brilliant and then a drawn out reduction in the quality. I realise this is a bit of a blanket statement but a few examples of the top of my head, Paul McCartney, Oasis, Quentin Tarentino, Stanley Kubrick, etc . I think its tempting to think it would be better with them both working together but perhaps they are no longer the writers they were, things move on and people change. Perhaps we are just like those Take That fans who want to go to new shows to tell themselves they are 19 again.
     
  3. RECTUMfacedPYGMY

    RECTUMfacedPYGMY Catering Officer

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    I think the fact is if both of them where working on it, it would still be a
    Lot better and fruitful and better. Doug is struggling on his own, it's like
    He's working with just half a man.
     
  4. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    they wrote a little bit together in 2007 for the last 7 or something minutes of the storyboarded bodysnatcher episode and looking at it as a whole it could have made a good episode, at least alot better then the last couple of seasons and the new ending they wrote together is actually funny and rounds it all out quite well

    i agree that it has to be better then doug struggling to write by himself which even if it turns out he isn't struggling the writing sometimes sure feels it
     
  5. Freeborn

    Freeborn Flight Co-Ordinator

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    I didn't get around to replying to this before but a friend and I were having this discussion last night after watching the episode again, so I'll reply now. :-)

    I get what you're saying here, and it's a really interesting perspective. I'm not necessarily saying it's wrong either. But I've been looking at this from a slightly different angle. Firstly, I never gave much thought to the possibility of The Beginning being the final episode, although I was/am of course aware that nothing is ever certain with RD given the many false starts we've had over the years. But I always hoped/expected that this reveal would be expanded upon in new episodes. So from that perspective I saw it as more a potential set-up than a finale.

    That aside, essentially Rimmer is still Rimmer. The most important elements of what we've learned about him still hold true. He still had the same dad, albeit not his biological father. And given the true nature of our malleable human nature he's still the man his upbringing, environment and personal experiences helped mould him into. Could this new found knowledge about his biological father inspire some personal changes? It's possible of course, but given his character I think it highly unlikely that many if any changes will occur. Other than the fact that he may now push some of the blame into a slightly different direction than he did before.

    But Rimmer doesn't need an excuse to be Rimmer. On the one hand his life chances and experiences are most certainly factors that went towards holding him back in certain ways. That can't be denied as such things obviously helped mould him into the man he is today. But on the other hand he should also (but probably wont) take some personal responsibility for the man he's become. It's not an either/or kind of thing. The simplified answer to the nature vs nurture debate is "it's a complex mixture of both":

    So Rimmer is well within his rights to cite his background and upbringing as factors that made things difficult for him. Where he is wrong however is in using that as a generic go-to excuse, while putting way too much emphasis on the genetic argument and evading any personal responsibility for his personal failures and misgivings.

    But that displays the cognitive inner-workings of Rimmer's mind, not necessarily that of the writer.

    And based on what we learned in The Beginning non of the above need change. Again the direction in which Rimmer pushes some of the blame may change, but within the show's reality that doesn't really change the basic premise of who Rimmer is, and why. We know why he is the way he is, even if he can't or wont see it himself.

    It may or may not be relevant to point out at this juncture that Doug studied psychology in his younger years. Either way I think he knows exactly what he's doing with Rimmer here. And I do feel it to be a bold but interesting and clever twist. And I say "clever" not just because I'm personally interesting in social science, but because not only do I *not* think it will detract from who Rimmer is as a character, if anything it could be used to help expand on what we already know about him. I have enjoyed learning about Rimmers past over the duration of the show's history, everything from the way his (non-biological) dad raised and treated him, to his relationship with his mother and brothers, to the spin-off effects that occurred from him being held back a year in school.

    Additionally, I don't think this twist will detract from the comedy element of the show either, which I think most of us here would agree is of utmost importance. :-)

    Edit: Added the additional point about Rimmer focusing on the genetic argument, and changed my wording in regards to the distinction between writer and character.
     
  6. Calcutta

    Calcutta Skutter

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    i agree with a lot of that. when BTE came out i think it was such a big disappointment mainly due to the high expectations of remembering the old series and how good most of those were. then when BTE was poor it just compounded the problem and made it seem worse than it was. X wasn't the best by any stretch, but i did watch it and laugh and i thought it was a move in the right direction.

    i'll be watching the new series probably due to loyalty more than expectation but the stories werent awful in X, just maybe not up there with the classics. with the new series being recorded together and hopefully a lot more time for the writing/re-writes/retakes and more importantly the actors to get back into their characters skins i still have faith. the biggest disappointment for me in the last couple of series was chris barrie. i think because the old classics for me mostly all revolved around the rimmer character and how well chris played him that seeing him play rimmer almost half halfheartedly made it a disappointment for me. i don't know if it was the writing that made his character change but he just seemed not very rimmer like.
     
  7. simulant37

    simulant37 Science Officer

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    My expectations for BtE were low, considering how poor the show had become after the terrible RD7 & 8...:roll:
     
  8. Slainmonkey

    Slainmonkey Deck Sergeant

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    I thought You once said you never saw series 8, has that changed?
     
  9. djmcbell

    djmcbell Supply Officer

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    I would be against the idea of a RD "reboot". RD is Craig Charles, Chris Barrie, Danny John-Jules and Robert Llewellyn. Just have a look at RD USA, and imagine what we'd have thought if it had gotten picked up and RD UK had been cancelled so they could concentrate on that.

    As for RD as a whole... yes, series 1-6 were brilliant. RDX has been the best RD since series 6, because it seems Doug has remembered that RD is supposed to be a sitcom. 7, for me, was great initially at the time, but has so much in it that's cringeworthy, and was far too drama-based (as if the BBC remembered it had a budget! Budgets and RD do not mix - tell them they've no money and have to make everything using toilet rolls). 8 was partially a return to sitcom roots, but still featured some drama stuff and "wacky" jokes (the ongoing saga of Kryten's penis, spiking drinks with viagra, destroying Ackerman's quarters and so on). BTE - I'll let that ride because it was different, and I think was meant to be different. In terms of being a sitcom however, it sucked. I wonder if someone would release a "laughter track" version of it, and people watch it to find it exactly the same?

    Finally, we have RDX.

    Now, there are bits of RDX that I liked, definitely. Trojan and Entangled are probably my favourite episodes in it. However, it just didn't have the same feel, or indeed the same flow. I think that, in series 1-6, Rob and Doug thought about what they wanted to happen in the episode, then added jokes along the way and adapted the episode and the jokes to work together. In RDX (and 7 and 8) I think Doug is trying to think about the episode and the jokes at the same time and force the two to work together. It just feels sometimes as if the jokes have been crowbarred in.

    Again, I enjoyed RDX and got the bluray, which I still watch from time to time. I hope that Doug has written some truly great episodes for XI and XII which have a better pacing and don't need sideplots from the dispensing machines playing chinese whispers to hold it together.
     
  10. Ant the Dragon

    Ant the Dragon Flight Co-Ordinator

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    He did say that. Caught out by the looks of it or judging a series when he hasn't even watched it. Very bizarre (if you please)!
     

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