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Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by Weevil, Nov 11, 2009.
Is anyone still interested in the Mugs Murphy TShirts? There's limited stock which is now on eBay http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200608156215
Does anyone have the Mugs Murphy colour logo? I'd rather like to get one so I can print my own design on CafePress, in a nice black or red.
I'm getting one of these to sleep in come payday!
And how much of the profit you'll make goes to the owners of Mugs Murphy?
Who are the owners of Mugs Murphy?
Grant Naylor Productions.
In all honesty there was no profit involved. After materials, making them, postage costs and eBay and PayPal fees it's really not economical to sell anything like this in small quantities. Just geting rid of a few I had left over after making some ages ago. I know it's shaky ground copyright-wise, but no one makes and sells anything like this officially.
And this is a good point. There's clearly a market so quite why GNP ignores it to continue putting out another collection of DVD's in a slightly different box is unclear at best.
I hope GNP doesn't take this ebayer down.
Not going to sell any more. Don't want to get into trouble :P
You've described GNP as 'ignoring' the market while actually quoting a poster who, from experience, has explained that there's no profit in the retail of these niche-appeal shirts. The facts are, like, right there. It's not 'ignoring' if it's practically unfeasible; why does every situation you're unhappy about require a negative motive? Why can't it just be 'unfortunate'?
These are a breech of copyright, of course they are. Frankly, personally, I'd like to see GNP offer the maker a licence; but that's just me. And why would they, and how would he afford it, if experience has proven it's not possible to be profitable? (Um, and if someone has gone the illegal route before even trying the legitimate one.)
Also, not that I care much for those new DVD vanillas - the first Dwarf DVDs I've had nothing to do with - but I don't see how they relate to the argument, beyond 'I want this but don't want this'.
Is this actually boiling down to an economics argument? Really? CLEARLY there IS a market for these shirts or the guy wouldn't be able to sell them at all! Why do I say this? Because most people are NOT willing to pay for something that is not legitimate-- because they want assurance of the quality of materials being used. In other words, if you find yourself in Venice, Italy and some dude on the street is selling bootlegged Hard Rock Cafe shirts for a quarter of the price of the real deal, then don't be too upset when the shirt doesn't last as long. These Mugs Murphy t-shirts aren't even available legitimately! (btw, mr flibble, this is NOT a knock on your product).
Mr Flibble's lack of successful profiting off these t-shirts does not PROVE anything. Least of all that such a venture COULD be profitable! A legitimate shirt and marketing campaign selling Lister's shirts could very well be profitable and no evidence has been presented to contradict this (aside maybe from one bootlegger "not making much of a profit"). I own a "London Jets" tshirt from cafe press and love wearing it out (especially when I go for some curry). I would love a Mugs Murphy shirt. Do I represent the market at large? No. Do Red Dwarf fans represent the market at large? No. We all love Red Dwarf because it's our little secretly awesome show (at least in the USA). It's been called a cult show. Of course the shirts would attract a cult following not a following at large. A BOOTLEGGED shirt would attract an even smaller following as the shirts' quality can not be assured as it could be if it was official "GNP". I have no interest in walking around with a shirt that says "let's get out there and twat it", no matter how much I enjoy polymorph. But the subtlety of "Lister attire" in being referential to my favorite show is much more in keeping with my style and I really believe more people are interested in this than Andrew is suggesting.
Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with bedfordfalls telling GNP he does not like the way they are using the Earth's limited resources by publishing those hideous editions of the red dwarf shows. This is the basics of economics. By not purchasing these "vanilla" editions, people are telling you to use the resources available to you more wisely. To counter this, two things must be established,
1: evidence that vanilla editions are actually selling well and therefore reflect that people do indeed believe that the dvds should be published in this manner and
2: that the original, non vanilla editions are still available for purchase to give people choice in the matter.
But when it really comes down to it, how many editions of the show do we need? T-shirts on the other hand, those are slim pickings indeed.
A market that sells at break-even or loss isn't a market. I could sell the contents of my bin and make no money. Making no money's easy.
Excellent, you have figures on all this! How it all relates to this specific example? Brilliant! You've got details on the Red Dwarf T-shirt market over the last 20 years, when it peaked and its current potential size, you've got a breakdown of audience preference regarding legitimacy, and you've put all the data together in a way that proves your point! Wonderful! Let's see it!
Or maybe you're saying "I'd rather pay for legit stuff, my mates would, so I guess that's true for most people. And certainly true enough to provide sales that will result in the outcome I would prefer."
The word there being 'could'. You don't know, but you think you know better than those with hard data. And while nobody said 'proof' - you want proof, go do your research - it's fair to say that those were facts. Certainly fact enough to raise question over bedfordfalls accusations of 'ignoring'. Something he has no idea is the case; and which, if he thought about it for two seconds, would seem hugely unlikely.
Don't argue someone else is being ignorant until you've proved yourself smarter or better informed, not just more public and forceful in your opinion.
Oh, if it's a matter of faith then we're fine! I thought it was a matter of market understanding, profit versus loss and projection based on previous and existing data. But if we only have to believe for it to be true, hurrah!
Can I have my pony now? And then chuck around accusations of disregard if people don't do what I want them to?
Ah, gotcha. His argument was environmental. I missed that. But only because he didn't say it.
'The basis of economics is that a non-purchase of an item is a sign of protest'? When I don't buy a sofa it's a way of telling DFS that I want them to put their efforts into stools? Nothing to do with me already having a sofa; it's a protest? They should cease manufacture because me not wanting what they sell is the same as nobody wanting it?
(I mean, I tend to think it's a message about what stuff individuals want or need with little or no message about global resources being exploited. I didn't buy Charmed cos it's a lousy show; I bought Buffy because it's great. My taste and interest guided the choice. I don't recall thoughts of my Global Responsibility occurring to me. But hey, maybe I'm unusual.)
And by the way, what's the cost in resources of making more two-disc Dwarf sets for sale, to serve demand, versus more of the vanillas? Just, y'know, in case there's still demand - which is better resource-wise? It's the cheaper ones, right? So if it's about resources, 2entertain should stop making two-disc sets and stick to vanillas?
You know how Red Dwarf gets to release more merchandise? By expanding and refreshing the fanbase. You know how that happens? By attracting people to the damn show. By making it easy to get hold of. Cheap, you might say. And by attracting attention on the shelves rather than leaving the same old things up. A new release attracts more attention than the existence of an old one.
For the hard of thinking: I've already given my personal opinion on the latest DVDs. This is not a defence of their creative quality, it's simply an understanding. 'What I like' is not the same as 'what is practical', and understanding informs argument better than opinion does. That's how it works in a land of grown-ups.
"Must" be established? For you to be happy to back down? Sure, I'll bet the private goings on of two companies will be turned over to make that happen. Because until then you'll assume they're stupid and wrong, having had no previous indication that they know how to run a franchise successfully for over 20 years. They're not doing what you want now, so you're assuming ignorance until it's proven otherwise, because what's occurred in the past - T-shirts, DVDs, whatever - doesn't buy them a moment of pause in judgement.
1. You think GNP and 2entertain released those DVDs based on guesswork? (But also, what 'people' want isn't a singular thing. The Just the Shows sets sold great, would you have guessed that? Probably not, not with the better two-disc sets already out. How about we assume there are people out there doing this professionally who know more than you or I do. And if you can't go that far, how about we at least accept that people think individually and that any retail figure is unlikely to be an indicator of 'belief'.)
2. The originals are still in stores. This can be established by Googling.
But I still don't see how the sale, or not, of these DVDs relates to T-shirts. Or do you think GNP can only approve one product at any given time?
Faith? No. When has GNP EVER offered Lister's shirts for sale? My point was and IS that you know about as much as I do or mrflibble or bedfordfalls. WHY do I say this? Because you offered up "proof" that Mugs Murphy wouldn't sell based on MrFlibble's bootlegged versions NOT making a profit. You want to talk previous and existing data, show me where I can buy OFFICIAL Lister shirts (around retail prices, not prop store auctions) and show me there was no demand for them! Concluding there is no demand for them because the bootlegs aren't profitable is foolhardy at best. And if you are analyzing previous t-shirt sales, know that not everyone wants to walk around with "TWAT" emblazoned on their chest when in public. So don't be condescending to me because I find your posturing and faith in corporate marketing to be deplorable. Grown ups? How about grown ups have the mature human decency to DISAGREE with someone else without belittling them. Some of us ARE a little less willing to put faith into fat cats in suits. I'm one of the biggest RD fans I know, and I have not seen ONE GnP red dwarf shirt that I've wanted. THAT's my point. The Lister shirts, those I'd want. Am I alone in this? No. Is it a niche market? Yes. Is RD a show that thrives in a niche market? Is RD a great white in a swimming pool, or just another shark in the ocean?
And getting off topic, but still can be related... GNP should be happy to have a cult show. They should be happy to be kicking arse in a niche market. Maybe they're not. I don't know. But adding Kochanski to the cast in 1997 to appeal to a wider movie-going audience seems to stem from a production company less interested in maintaining independent and artistic integrity and more interested in grabbing a larger piece of the market. In some circles this is called "selling out". Though it usually works more as "selling out" when they actually become HUGE.
My point is, do you want to be a huge rock star, or do you want to be a very respected rock musician?
Fans may be more in number, but are less rabid when you sell out.
Do you want to be The Offspring after "Americana" or do you want to be them before, when their fans still truly liked them?
What the smeg does this have to do with t-shirts? It's my interpretation of the attitude I get from your posts on this in general. You claim I'm not a "grown up"? Maybe it's because I don't give 2 smegs about the almighty "dollarpound". And maybe GNP doesn't either, and that's why they don't want to sell Lister's shirts :P
What I do care about is stifling creativity. Why DOESN'T GNP set up some kind of licensing for this? Who knows. Am I saying that GNP is not entitled to their copyright material? Certainly not. But offer us something official is all I'm saying.
This thread has deteriorated into an insulting mess. I've now incurred the wrath of Andrew. ME! Now I understand why certain users here take issue with you at times! You lashed out at me like some frightened child in an angry world. It feels like a personal attack! I'm not a grown up? I didn't realized not being a suit was the same as not being a grown-up.
Didn't use the word proof. Never did. I pointed out facts that suggested accusations of 'ignoring' were unreasonable. And I'm still right about that.
I know more than you or bedfordfalls about this. Whacky, but there it is. I worked inside the company for a decade. I campaigned for fan-pleasing content like this every damn day. I poured everything into trying to bridge commerce and fan demand, and Doug does the same. And when it was physically possible, practical, to release such content, you benefitted. Or, since you're apparently unhappy, maybe you didn't.
Either way, you don't get to insult those people - dismiss their knowledge of their subject, assume you know more and better and slam their integrity and their ability - based on guesswork. You sure as hell don't get to assume ignorance as a first resort.
It's not my job to prove to you that these people know more than you do. And as anyone with any common sense knows, you don't prove something isn't feasible by doing it and failing.
"Get out there and twat it" is the biggest selling Red Dwarf shirt ever, by the way. And nobody at GNP wears a suit to work.
wow. lot of anger here. why do i feel like i've stirred a proverbial wasps nest?
Wrong, wrong, absolutely brimming over with wrongability. You act like a Christian arguing with an Atheist. I don't assume I know anymore. I flat out said I didn't. And INSULT these people? The person doing the insulting is YOU sir. In fact anything that I might have said that could remotely be insulting would never have been typed if you SIR had not blatantly and explicitly insulted me! Don't get all up on your high horse and insult the FANS of the show! Who the hell do you think you are? YOU think you're better than ME! Just because you're fortunate enough to work for GNP the last 10 years (which is kind of funny, since during that time, you were involved in a 2nd rate outing of a 72 minute production of RD that bordered on being plagiarism of Blade Runner). Sure you updated the website and did some behind the scene features, etc etc. Well go you, Drew! You deserve a statue of your likeness in Piccadilly Circus. You don't know anything about me, yet you insult me. Well guess what? I studied video production, wrote movie screenplays, etc. Sure I didn't get the lucky break that you did in working for GNP, and even though that was once my dream job, if I had to work with your pomposity I'd probably couldn't stand it. So spit on the fans, tell us we know nothing. Try to make us feel like crap. But you'll never break this heart of stone, you smegger. Rant, rave, act like your crap doesn't stink, but don't expect me to kiss your arse.
I DISAGREE with you! AAAH! the walls of gnp will surely crumble. We will all see the wrath of Andrew. He will throw his big dirty diaper at our faces and say "this is the new red dwarf...what do you mean it's crap? Your crap! You don't get to insult me! Mr Doug sir, the peasants are revolting!" Smeghead.
"Better than you"? I said I knew more on this one, very specific subject - RD merchandise and the motives of GNP. Am I wrong?
What have I said that's inaccurate? Yes, you disagreed, and I disagreed back. Only I backed my points up with some common sense (and, okay, some sarcasm when you turned guesswork into fact). I admit I could have gone your route of block capitals, claiming that sales are based on people's preference for use of "using the Earth's limited resources" and insisting that "two things must be established" before you'd accept another opinion. But that just didn't seem smart.
I get it. You have an opinion, and you don't like that I disagreed. But really, I poked fun but I never attacked you personally. Unless you count this: "'What I like' is not the same as 'what is practical', and understanding informs argument better than opinion does. That's how it works in a land of grown-ups."
Given your latest reply - mocking work I've done for no better reason than you want to lash out, not once conceding that any point I've made might have validity, insulting people and blaming me for your choice of words - I'm happy to stick by that.
You don't speak for fans. You speak for you. When I take issue with what you say, it's an issue with your words. Not you personally, and certainly not, by some mystical extension, 'spitting on the fans'. That you don't see any difference only indicates how childish this has become.
He's explained that there is no profit for him in the retail of these niche-appeal shirts. But then he presumably has limited resources to make them, can't properly promote them to the fan-base and also has to override the concern some fans may have over buying 'knock off' goods that don't reward the copyright holder.
None of that should necessarily mean that sales of such T-shirts would be necessarily unfrofitable if they were produced officially and marketed properly by the patent holders at GNP. Just because some people won't buy pirate DVD's from underground sources it doesn't necessarily follow that they also won't buy the legitimate items from the license holders.
If you have legitimate market research that suggests the production of such T-shirts would be unprofitable or not worthwhile for GNP then fair enough, but suggesting that the findings of some ebayer who made a few T-shirts in his spare time somehow validates it seems a rather poor proof that there wouldn't be a market for items like these.
I'd like to see GNP at least put the idea to its fanbase so they could see whether it would be a valid exercise.
Hmm, this also seems a good point to me. I don't own any Red Dwarf t-shirt and I suspect the reason is that every one I've ever seen from this one to the Ace Rimmer one makes the wearer look like they've just walked straight out of the bowels of Forbidden Planet.
It would be nice to have something more subtle that other fans would smile at but which doesn't scream 'Games Workshop dweller' from the rooftops. That's why the Jets t-shirts appeal to me. I like any kind of product that references a show but does so without being overly tacky.
It's not a 1:1 comparison, of course. Never said it was. But is it not reasonable enough factual information to suggest that maybe saying GNP are 'ignoring' people is an overstatement?
Yes, it's poor proof. And if I'd use the word proof, that would have been wrong. But I didn't - and as an example, as a point of comparison, it doesn't earn GNP a little bit of reasonable doubt in your mind? That's all I'm asking: whatever your opinion, whatever you personally want, is assuming ignorance really fair?
I get the feeling that this is being read as "I don't want those T-shirts to happen". Despite my personal preference being 100% the opposite of that.