Never let us be said

Discussion in 'THE AIGBURTH ARMS' started by neilold, Apr 18, 2018.

  1. neilold

    neilold Science Officer

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    That my politics are anything but thoroughly liberal. So, with that in mind, what are your opinions on the windrush controversy, or on labour being mired in anti Semitism accusations
     
  2. Simonr1978

    Simonr1978 Console Officer

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    I've not read much about the Windrush controversy, but to me it seems to be a fairly straightforward admin screw up which was then further mishandled afterwards. I've read some suggestions that it was a deliberate plot to deport those who'd passed working age but that fails on the old adage of not assuming a conspiracy where incompetence will suffice.

    As with Windrush, not really followed the Labour anti-Semitism issues that closely but I am aware of it. To be honest, I'm not sure what to make of it, I'm inclined towards thinking that the perception of the problem is probably worse than the reality, but that there is a problem there and the leadership's apparent inaction and attitude of "Nothing to see here, move along" seems to be doing even more damage to the party than if they openly admitted it and made moves to tackle it.
     
  3. BigOleDummy

    BigOleDummy Console Officer

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    :redface::redface::redface: I'm sorry to say I wasn't really aware of either of those controversies until about 3 hours ago :redface:. Then only because of Danny John-Jules tweets on the matter. Did a quick search and............. in my admittedly brief knowledge of it came to think almost exactly like :

    I think its something that needs to be addressed though. I see a little more ..... racism than @Simonr1978 though. Yes and the anti-Semitism too. Since the occupation of our White House by foreign interests and seeing the sheer amount of racism and hate unleashed HERE by those forces I'm becoming more Cynical by the day. Why can't we all just get along?
     
  4. neilold

    neilold Science Officer

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  5. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    The public wants immigration tightened, mainly because of modern immigration, and as part of that the government is introducing new measures that affect immigrants who arrived before the Immigration Act 1971. There's no specific policy targeting Windrush immigrants or black people, it's just that Windrush immigrants have been among the immigrants affected. But the "Long-term Immigrants of all Races Controversy" isn't a sexy headline.

    It's a pretty standard tactic for Zionists that when people criticise Israel, conflate that with anti-Semitism. For example Corbyn attended a passover celebration with anti-Zionist Jews, and Zionist Jews touted this as proof of anti-semitism! Corbyn is a far-left anti-Zionist. He goes along with that because he believes in it and because he wants to pander to his Muslim voters.
     
  6. neilold

    neilold Science Officer

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    I don't really think it's just Corbyn though,or specifically. The left has always being anti Semitic, especially the hard left. It's more a class thing than anything else. Jews are traditionally seen as greedy capitalists, which is the sworn enemy of socialism.
     
  7. BigOleDummy

    BigOleDummy Console Officer

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    That's nonsense Neil. Jewish people have been a major driving force in liberal politics for forever. I DO think that at least here on our side of the pond we write Israel too blank a check. Yes, Jew's have to be protected just like everyone else. But the Israeli government seems to take advantage of that at times. There HAS to be a solution to the Palestinian question at some point and the constant housing development's and discrimination towards the Israeli Arabs pretty much shuts the door on that. Why should Israel compromise when big brother U.S.A. will bail them out of any trouble?

    There is a difference between Jewishness and Israel. Netanyahu is about as close to being a fascist as any Israeli leader in my lifetime.
     
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  8. neilold

    neilold Science Officer

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    That's not nonsense, it's certainly not indemic, or widespread, but there is a definite section within the left wing. Just because a lot of Jews are traditionally liberal, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. like I said it's more a class stereotype arguement than a specific dislike of the Jewish people perse.

    As for the Palestinian question, you've got about as much chance of solving that as I have of becoming miss world
     
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  9. neilold

    neilold Science Officer

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  10. Nikki the Great

    Nikki the Great Flight Co-Ordinator

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    No Neil, that IS nonsense. The left are not anti-semitic at all. That's the far-right. Where the heck do you get your info from? Especially now Britain First's fb page got removed :lol:
     
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  11. BigOleDummy

    BigOleDummy Console Officer

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    Yeah, I'll check it out here in a bit. And you guessed correctly I will not patronize Fox period.

    Lol, well............ that's not so clear cut then..... after all this IS the Internet after all. The @neilold persona COULD be just a smokescreen and you're actually :
    [​IMG]
     
  12. neilold

    neilold Science Officer

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    That's miss England and it's still closer than a chance of sorting Palestine out
     
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  13. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    I sense the makings of a brilliant new reality TV show.
     
  14. jmc2000

    jmc2000 Deck Sergeant

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    Even as a broad generalisation, this simply isn't true. Labour supported the movement of Jews to Palestine, even before the Balfour Declaration had been... Balfour Declared? They backed the idea of a Jewish homeland through the 1930s, and opposed a Conservative attempt to stop Jews immigrating to Palestine on the eve of WWII.

    The Holocaust hardened their position. By the end of WWII, Labour believed that the case for the mass relocation of Jews to Palestine was overwhelming. In the 1950s, they praised the newly-formed state and wanted a military pact with it. Labour leader (and then Prime Minister) Harold Wilson was famously pro-Israel.

    It's hard to explain this stuff if "the left" has always been prone to anti-semitism (especially if you consider what "the right" were up to, during the same decades!). Also, the canard about Jews being "greedy" goes back the Middle Ages - so, if that were a deal-breaker, you'd expect it to shape left wing attitudes during the early 20th Century.

    During the 60s and 70s, support for Israel wasn't unanimous in the Labour party. For instance: there was a minor group campaigning against "Zionist infiltration" of the party (I say "minor" because, for every member it had, Labour Friends of Israel had four). I don't think "anti-Zionism" was a major force in British left-wing thought until the Eighties - and, even then, it was confined to party margins by a succession of pro-Israel leaders, lasting almost to the present day.

    Of course, I'm not conflating Judaism and the modern State of Israel. But I find it hard to believe that the left "has always been anti-semitic" (or even had a fundamental problem with anti-semitism) if it sustained a strong pro-Israel consensus for the whole 20th Century and some years after. You can certainly oppose Israel without being anti-semitic, but I'm scratching my head if you manage to do the opposite. So, whatever might be happening today, it's not an expression of something that was part of left-wing thought (or typical of it) since day one.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2018
  15. BigOleDummy

    BigOleDummy Console Officer

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    Well said.
     
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  16. BigOleDummy

    BigOleDummy Console Officer

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    Just a short list of prominent American "Leftist" Liberal Jews. Not sure about how it is on your side of the pond but without Jewish help and leadership OUR liberals/leftist's would have been much less successful. To say the left is anti-Semitic is to not know the facts. I'm sure, certain in fact, that there are/were/will be people on the left who are anti-Semitic but as a whole? The facts don't bear that out one single bit.
     
  17. Nikki the Great

    Nikki the Great Flight Co-Ordinator

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    And @kry102001
     
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  18. BigOleDummy

    BigOleDummy Console Officer

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    I didn't know he was Jewish or I would have included him :redface:
     
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  19. Nikki the Great

    Nikki the Great Flight Co-Ordinator

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    Poor old @kry102001 always the bridesmaid and never the bride.
     
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  20. BigOleDummy

    BigOleDummy Console Officer

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    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
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