norman lovett not changing his mind

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by talkie3000, Jun 13, 2011.

  1. Andrew

    Andrew Executive Officer

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    Regardless or not of the feelings of a man who dislikes the show he's angry he wasn't hired to be in, the 'Why Holly isn't in it" line always baffled me. Since, y'know, all three reasons were true:

    Yep. They're like TV producers who, when faced with an economic casting problem, explain a character's absence within the narrative.

    "The male Holly came back in Series VII because 1. It was affordable, 2. The Red Dwarf ship setting for the next series would allow the scripts to have him nearby, 3. The nanobots restored his core programme along with the ship." Nobody's struggling to reconcile the idea that those three can all be possible at the same time.

    Still, what about number 2? Well, that's just the way it went - once it was clear that nearly two-thirds of the story was going to take place on 'Earth', it becomes a lot easier to not have Holly in it. (Backwards and Meltdown are good indicators of how that kind of story goes.) But when Norman 'left' the project it was only two eps - Holly could have been a definite presence for half of ep one and the climax of ep two even if he'd never left the ship.
     
  2. Nicko1

    Nicko1 First Technician

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    I agree that the three reasons make sense but I'm confused by your post here...

    When the project was only two eps, Holly wasn't going to be in it at all according to Doug's commentary.

    And if it could have been made into three eps, then Doug said that Holly wouldn't have been there at the climax because Katerina bringing him back would just have been an illusion.
     
  3. Andrew

    Andrew Executive Officer

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    To be clear: there was never a draft of the script with Holly in. But there was potential for the character to be included if the money had been found and the actor had been willing. (Likewise there was no Kochanski in the early versions; we didn't anticipate affording Chloë, either. Which is an interesting point of comparison for this whole business.)

    What I was talking about was Norman's response to what he had read in the press back then - at some point we'd mentioned that, with the Earth setting, having Holly travelling with the crew would have been cumbersome. That's true, but it's not 'the reason' Holly wasn't included in the early drafts - yet as the script evolved it became an increasingly good reason for him not to be there, irrespective of other factors.

    As to 'that ending', I know that's one variation Doug had in mind. But he keeps a lot of stuff in there! (Plus, as you say, that's related to the three ep version, not the two I was talking about; though it all blurs.) I'm only speaking about what could have been, not what would definitely have been made. The variations discussed, debated and considered are many.

    Personal opinion: had we gone to three episodes with Holly, and a draft had come in where the Holly repair is revealed as an illusion, I may have advised against it. Holly being offline was created to excuse the character's absence - there's no need to include it if you have the actor, and Holly 'just being there' suits the 'starting fresh' approach BTE had. Just as with Rimmer being a hologram, the ship being crew-free, etc.

    When you get to the end of the episode, I think you want a feeling of 'the gang's all here'. An ending that works as a series conclusion or the start of a fresh adventure. Which is, I think, what we ended up with. If he had had Holly, I think undoing his appearance in the final reel might have rendered the ending less focussed. 'Go find Kochanski' is a great, back-to-basics quest for the team. 'Get Holly fixed' wouldn't have been.

    (This all depends on whether Holly had been in the Earth sections, too, mind you. Had he been ship-bound, not coming back would have relegated the character to episode one only, out of three; which seems shoddy to me. And had he been traveling with them, making him anything other than a gag-inserting observer would have been tough. My gut says it would have gone like Backwards/Meltdown, but who can be sure?)

    Still, it would have depended on the writing. For all I know, that variation - as it exists in Doug's brain - might have been fantastic. But as a story pitch? I think it's more satisfying, and more emotionally useful, to have Holly there waiting when the gang emerge from their dream.
     
  4. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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  5. Andrew

    Andrew Executive Officer

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  6. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    to be honest im betting there is a 50% chance that even if doug had kept norman in the loop by informing him at the start that he wasnt gonna be in it that norman would still say he aint gonna do any more red dwarf with them

    but sometimes its just easier and sounds better to say oh im unhappy he didnt tell me from the start that i wasnt gonna be in it then to say oh im really angry that after 9 years he didnt write holly/me into the script and i feel cheated

    normans pride will continue till his book is released im sure
     
  7. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    http://www.chortle.co.uk/news/2011/07/11/13616/normans_times
     
  8. Nicko1

    Nicko1 First Technician

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    I'm sure some will start up the ridiculing again but I will be glad if this does get released. I'll take anything in it with a pinch of salt but Norman seems to have had an interesting life and I will certainly give it a read.
     
  9. Bluey

    Bluey Science Officer

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    Thanks for that, Toaster. This book was taking so long that I was worried that, like the Red Dwarf movie, it was never going to surface. I'll certainly buy it when it comes out.

    So far that's two Dwarf-related things to look forward to over the next few years.
     
  10. SixthDwarfer

    SixthDwarfer Supply Officer

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    I like how Norm says he didn't want to do it at first. Seems a bit strange as it's all he seems to go on about.
     
  11. Andrew

    Andrew Executive Officer

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    This is what happened in an early draft, I seem to vaguely recall.
     
  12. Nicko1

    Nicko1 First Technician

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    I notice that Norman will also be recording a new live DVD in September which is, imo, good news too.
     
  13. Andrew

    Andrew Executive Officer

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    Always been a fan of his stand-up. Good to hear.
     
  14. peas_and_korn

    peas_and_korn First Technician

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    Nobody likes him, not even mummy.
     
  15. betterdead

    betterdead Skutter

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    Alright. Been a fan for years, been on this website for years. Happily read peoples views and news, really enjoy it, but never felt the need to get involved. So let me tell you how this thread makes me feel as a bit of an outsider. The six minute clip says it all about Norman Lovett. Put this with other reports and quotes of what he's said and it paints a sad picture. He keeps talking about money; he only ever got paid peanuts. He's been treated badly, he'll never work for GNP again. And yet here he is constantly using RD as a way to get himself heard. Such a pity, but such a disaster. With all due respect if that's how you feel then 'go away', stop 'harping on' about hard times and go and earn a living in a respectful way. Can't believe I've sunk to these depths but some people have to be told.
     
  16. Ant the Dragon

    Ant the Dragon Flight Co-Ordinator

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    I think it's fairly obvious why. Norman is an extremely arrogant and greedy person who thinks he is above Red Dwarf. Now he has arrogantly got himself stuck in a position where he probably COULD come back, but it would mean him swallowing his pride which I doubt he will do.

    So instead he goes for the headline grabbing, attention seeking of slagging off the show that made him famous... and using the show to promote his own tours. Ugh, people like him make me sick. He doesn’t deserve to be a part of it...!
     
  17. Freeborn

    Freeborn Flight Co-Ordinator

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    This one is especially for you, Anti Everything, and all you other lovers of Norm ... :P
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsynY1AxsJs
     
  18. Bluey

    Bluey Science Officer

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    I have to say that I really dislike all this anti-Norman talk on here.

    I've seen this video before. It's great and perfectly suited to Norman's acting style.

    By the way, if anybody's curious about Norman's eccentric sit-com I, Lovett from the late Eighties/early Nineties, all seven episodes are available to watch on his website.
     
  19. Mardroid

    Mardroid Console Officer

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    Much as I disliked some of his comments and behaviour after BtE, I agree.
     
  20. Freeborn

    Freeborn Flight Co-Ordinator

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    Agreed. As someone mentioned below the vid on youtube, this could possibly work well as a kind of UK version of curb your enthusiasm. I'm not overly familiar with that show, but from the little i have seen of it, it seems like a pretty good idea to me.


    I've been meaning to check that out for years now. I'm sure i'll get around to it sooner or later though. I'm looking forward to the new Live dvd too. I may have to try and catch a live show at some point as well :-)
     

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