Rate Series X

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by Bluey, Nov 8, 2012.

  1. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    i really liked the flashback scene of young rimmer in the Beginning as i think it was a nice character piece, but still not loving the whole rimmers dad is a gardener crap, i mean rob and doug have always kinda treated rimmer like a character who fails because of himself, the direction he went in life and how he was raised but it was almost like doug was saying now its time we find out why rimmer always fails and thats because... his father was a middle class loser, and you could argue and say well thats not true it still stands that its rimmers own fault but i think listers 100 peice jigsaw line was an attempt at saying it all makes sense now and obviously its something the audiance will automaticly go ohhhhhh i get it nowww

    and while we had a nice template of rimmers past from over 6 seasons of the show which really didn't need explaining, he devorced his parents, him and his brothers were put on stretchers, and the dad was a half crazed middle aged failure ect ect, i think the whole rimmers father thing just opens more questions, like why did the guy treat rimmer like his own if he knew he wasn't his and then give him a hologramme message basicly saying ok now you are old enough its time you know i ain't your father and i can tell you that you have a blood line of failures ok goodbye arnold

    i mean maybe doug in his head worked it all out but it seems like the idea was more interesting then the logic in it
     
  2. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    alot of fans don't like series 8 but if you go on amazon there are loads of good reviews for series 8 also
     
  3. Simonr1978

    Simonr1978 Deck Sergeant

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    Well I can only speak for myself here, but there was enough good in there that I was willing or able to overlook moments like the Shakespear speech. Although Lemons bothered me more overall because there were just so many basic mistakes there. If there had been a return to the Series VIII style juvenile slapstick that we got in the typewriter scene of Back to Earth then I would have been bothered, but what we did get was mostly an improvement over that and was IMO closer to the humour of the earlier series which I preferred so I'm pretty happy with the end result.

    That's not to say there aren't things I'd rather see done different or that I don't think there was room for improvement though.
     
  4. dodgebizkit

    dodgebizkit Deck Sergeant

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    Rimmer is bitter towards Shakespeare's success - Lister is saying "What a great guy he invented these phrases" and Rimmer is like "GRRR you love him for something so stupid but despite me being able to solder electric cables in a vending machine or knowing how to make a lemon battery, I get no respect"

    Its like I can tell you how Apple revolutionised the music and mobile phone market - I can also tell you a million reasons why they are a horrible company and why you shouldn't buy their products depending on what angle we are speaking about them from.

    One is looking at Shakespear the great poet and playwrite and the other is looking at a stupid haired man who got lucky because a few sayings hhe created caught on, Rimmer has a very bitter and jealous side and I think it isn't overly out of character. What do you think?
     
  5. Simonr1978

    Simonr1978 Deck Sergeant

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    Whilst not necessarily out of character, it just seems odd for a man who owned the complete works of Shakespear (Even if he never actually read them, or even saw anything of them apart from West Side Story) and who in Marooned tried to persuade Lister not to burn it to then turn out to have such a hatred for the man. But then continuity has never been Red Dwarf's strong point.

    It's not just that though, it wasn't a particularly good or funny rant and to be honest I didn't think Chris Barrie's delivery was that good either, especially at the end with the "Shakespear, it's over!".
     
  6. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    its not really out of character as rimmer has made negative rants about historical figures before like in holoship,whitehole and shown bitterness in dimension jump

    what makes the Shakespear thing stand out as odd is probably marooned
     
  7. Pembers

    Pembers Deck Sergeant

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    Trojan 8.5
    Fathers and Suns 7.5
    Lemons 7
    Entangled 7.5
    Dear Dave 6.5
    The Beginning 7.5
     
  8. Seymour_Clufley

    Seymour_Clufley First Technician

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    Well, first of all Lister's "celebration" of Shakespeare in that scene is itself low-brow. Shakespeare was not merely a man who came up with great "phrases" and he certainly hasn't caught on because of a few "sayings" he created. Naylor reducing him to that is very, very shallow. I mean, an advertising director comes up with great phrases but we don't go to performances of his adverts in theatres the world over, and we certainly won't be doing it 400 years after his death. Politicians come up with great phrases but that doesn't mean they're actually saying anything, or that what they're saying is any kind of honest reflection of the human condition. I don't mean to labour this point but you've reminded me of what I was thinking while that scene was playing out, and it was that even the supposedly pro-Shakespeare character (Lister) had an anaemic appreciation of the man's genius. (This is why it just didn't feel like Red Dwarf to me. These used to be two intelligent guys. Now they're a pair of dimwits.)

    And that is yet more evidence of bad characterisation... In earlier series, Lister wouldn't have been taken in by a writer who merely came up with great phrases. Lister, in earlier series, was actually pretty deep. Even if he lacked the education/intelligence to get the maximum out of Shakespeare, he was clearly a far more thoughtful guy than we see in RDX. Look at his musings in DNA about identity (and also about luck and misfortune, in the same episode). Or his feelings about Casablanca in Holoship (or King of Kings: The Story of Jesus in the same episode). Those are off the cuff; I'm sure there are many more examples. He was never a cretin, and he wasn't easily taken in, and he had a serious interest in life, the universe and everything. (Yes, I know there are contrary things - his reading the Aeneid in comic book form, etc.) Now, to see him appreciating Shakespeare on the grounds of everyday sayings that the man invented, is just so disappointing. It's reducing literary appreciation to a sort of inane general knowledge quiz; you don't need to understand anything, you just need to know who came up with what phrases! Mad. The old Lister would never have done that. Maybe they're all so bored out in space that they're prepared to settle for conversations like that - I don't know - but it doesn't make for riveting viewing.

    Now as for Rimmer, I think you have a point that he could just be jealous of Shakespeare's success. But I don't think so. Apart from anything else, it violates an appreciation for Shakespeare that we know (from Marooned) he has. Okay, he's never read any of it, but that's precisely the point. He values it even though he hasn't read it, because he values the civilisation of which it is the crowning glory. So I don't think it fits Rimmer's character to slag off Shakespeare. He thinks of himself, and wants to show himself, as a man of breeding, education, refinement, etc. Rubbishing Shakespeare is the last thing any such man would do.

    I really think Naylor put that scene in there for the same reason he had Rimmer enjoying being in the Erra facility with all its bizarre flaws: he couldn't think of anything else to put there.

    I don't want to come across as anti-Doug Naylor. I have no axe to grind with him. It's RDX that I find disappointing. It could be that, actually, it was Naylor who came up with all the "deep" stuff I so enjoy in the earlier series, not Rob Grant. It's impossible for me to know who wrote what. Maybe Grant functioned more as a sounding board, and would say "no we can do better", a kind of quality control that curbed Naylor's excesses and made him focus more on depth? I don't know. But one way or another, the show has really lost it since Grant left, IMHO.
     
  9. Bluey

    Bluey Science Officer

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    I see we've got a latecomer.

    I've updated the final results to include Pembers' ratings. The six series X ratings have changed slightly but not enough to alter their rankings.
     
  10. Freeborn

    Freeborn Flight Co-Ordinator

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    Really? That's not the conclusion I came to, far from it. Lister was just taking the smeg, we can't take what that guy says to and/or about Rimmer too seriously, he's always been a bit of a wind up merchant in that sense.

    Rimmer is the way he is because of the environment he was raised in by his parents (ie the peeps who raised him), his experiences and life decisions. He is a victim of his environmental upbringing...although he's not fully without "blame". He needs to take some responsibility for the man he became. His odd take on things in regards to thinking he has less to prove now because his biological father was a gardener is his own distorted issue. Personally I think this new informations opens things up quite nicely. I look forward to seeing how things will pan out from here on in.

    Because his dad (the man who raised him) is a total tw@t. He has a lot to do with why Rimmer became the way he is. But whilst Rimmer's reasoning for feeling released from feeling down about himself is pretty misguided, it seems it may prove to be quite a positive thing after all for him to finally find that out....maybe.

    For me personally this new information does not ruin any of the back story. In fact so much more makes sense (to me) now. I also actually feel more sorry for the smegger than ever before now.

    And I see the questions all this raises as a very positive thing...I wonder if his brothers knew he had a different biological father? Could that be why they picked on him so much perhaps?...this is not something I've analysed all that much yet by the way, I'm just throwing it out there.

    Oh and as a side note (a separate issue from a different ep:-( was Lister wrong when he said the problem is the man (Rimmer) not the system(in regards to not replacing the drive plates)? Was the problem really Rimmer over the system? Or did much of the fault in fact lie in the system?

    As Heath (from the Red Dwarf Introcast) said on a recent podcast: While Rimmer does tend to push the blame a lot, what kind of system would allow a man as incompetent as him, and with so few qualifications to be in charge of something that could potentially put the lives of the entire crew in danger"?

    Controversial eh? :-)
     
  11. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    yeah but these get taken for face value by fans and im sure doug should know that, just like when lister said rimmer cried mummy mummy before he died and while doug says lister was taking the smeg there was alot of fans who took it seriously and went straight to doug saying HE DIDN'T SAY MUMMY MUMMY HE SAID GASPACHO SOUP!!

    yeah i can see it being mentioned in an episode of series 11, probably not the series 8 ending but the rimmers dad thing, and it will probably be lister reminding rimmer that his father is a gardener and rimmer acting all cocky saying he always wondered why he was good with his hands or something

    well series 10 alone added more layers to rimmers family, the whole brother being just as much of a failure as rimmer and then the whole rimmer dad being a gardener thing which you can make up your own ideas for this stuff but i can never shake off the idea we are just making things up to cover what doug didn't think about when writing it


    didn't kryten use this as defence for rimmer in the episode justice?
     
  12. Freeborn

    Freeborn Flight Co-Ordinator

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    Ah, actually yeah that was pretty much about the size of it, wasn't it? Perhaps it's not so controversial after all, eh? :-)
     
  13. Pembers

    Pembers Deck Sergeant

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    Whoops sorry, only read the first page, didn't realise the discussion had moved on.
     
  14. mtullock

    mtullock First Technician

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    I personally feel its too late to start shaking up the characters back stories. We have had ten years to grow to love these characters and lets be honest we are closer to the eventual end of Red Dwarf than to the beginning and so I feel Rimmers history should have remained.
     
  15. Simonr1978

    Simonr1978 Deck Sergeant

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    Whilst we don't have a great deal to go on regarding what a Second Technician's job involved aboard a JMC mining ship (Beyond the comment to the effect that they get the jobs deemed too unimportant to bother the service droids with), I assumed that anything more technical than restocking the vending machines and cleaning blocked nozzles should probably be passed further up the chain to someone more qualified. Soldering, wiring or electrical work would probably be passed on to electricians or engineers of some sort.

    Regarding the Drive plate, I'd always assumed (That word again) that as far as Rimmer's involvement went he probably wasn't in charge and it probably wasn't something that he'd been instructed to do, but rather he'd spotted something wrong when doing his rounds and, seeing a chance for a bit of glory and praise and maybe even a promotion, had try to deal with it off his own initiative only in typical Rimmer style he botched it up. I don't think it was necessarily the system, since any system is reliant on the individual members knowing what it's their responsibility to deal with themselves and what it's their responsibility to pass on to others.
     
  16. Freeborn

    Freeborn Flight Co-Ordinator

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    Interesting. So you're gonna' blame it all on poor old Rimmsie eh? A man with obvious psychological issues and learning difficulties, and of whom was bullied in school and called "bone head" by his so-called best friend - and was treated like smeg by his brothers, among other unfortunate issues throughout his troublesome upbringing? You would blame this self-loathing, poor delusional soul for the deaths of all those people?...Have you no soul, man!? ;-)

    In all seriousness though, if it was not Rimmer's job to fix the faulty drive plate then I agree it's less a problem with the system and a teensy weensy bit more to do with Rimmer just being Rimmer. But, I sincerely think it difficult to deny there being a problem with the system on some level. But yeah you would certainly expect such a job to be given to the service droids or someone a little more qualified and trusted not to royally smeg things up.

    But then this is a ship run by Captain Hollister after all. I can't imagine that guy running an especially tight ship (a ship of which was not in the best condition anyway). Especially given how we now know he became captain in the first place.

    Anyway, my personal opinion/theory in regards to who or what was to blame is: the system...and Rimmer. But more so the system. The latter allowed Rimmer access to the drive plates in the first place, regardless of whether it was his job or not. As it happens I'd always personally assumed it was a job he was given. And of course while he is guilt-ridden and blames himself, he also puts some of the blame onto Lister for not helping him too.

    So, there are two ways of looking at this. Either the job was given to an unqualified, incompetent lower-rank officer, or Rimmer was trying to prove himself as you suggest. In which case those drive plates should've been securely enclosed behind lock and key. And only one fully qualified should have access to them, surely?

    And then there's the technical aspect of the system: what the ship is powered by, the apparent lack of some kind of Potassium Lodide safty back up system and advanced air filtration with integrated cooling unit to protect against radiation leaks. Such an integrated system to lessen the danger enough to allow the crew chance to escape in Starbugs, Blue Midgits and escape pods. And if there aren't enough, well that's another flaw of the system right there.

    And even if a fully qualified technician or service droid had flamingoed up, surely there should be some kind of automated emergency back up system in place to guard from such potential disasters...but it's probably best I don't go off on that tangent too much as I may get a little carried away and start taking things a bit too seriously ;-)

    *Disclaimer: While I personally think I made some good points there, those last two paragraphs should be taken with a pinch of smeg. It's not the main portion of my case here. :-)

    Rimmer is not a murderer, or even guilty of manslaughter in my eyes. He's guilty of being a bit of an incompetent smeg-for-brains within an inadequate system. The problem was likely considerably more complex than a faulty part of one minor drive plate, as Kryten successfully argued in "Justice".

    Rimmer is bound to blame himself (well, sometimes). But again that's just Rimmer being Rimmer. And Lister probably doesn't have the foggiest what the real problem or cause may have been. No, I'm much more inclined to trust Krytie on this one.

    So, in conclusion to my case, I put it to the judge and jury that even if it was not Rimmer's responsibility to repair the faulty drive plates, he shouldn't have been given unsupervised access to them (and no, having Lister with him doesn't count, as he's equally as unqualified).

    The flaws of the system killed the crew, not Rimmer.

    ...in my opinion...and the "opinion" of systems theory and the scientific method! ;-)

    Edit: Fixed a couple of typis
     
  17. mtullock

    mtullock First Technician

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    lets not forget the flashback to Rimmer getting a dressing down by Hollister after the Drive Plate repair. there is the dude with the beard behind him. I have always thought he looks like the guy that caught / reported Rimmer to Hollister. Also remember in the original cit of The End rimmer is removing rivets to do some soldering (I think) so his duties did include more than cleaning vending machines (although that may have been his core duties)
     
  18. Claire_C

    Claire_C Third Technician

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    In the flashback in Me2, Hollister does say: "It was your job to fix it, Rimmer. You can't do sloppy work on the drive plate". Having said that, I totally agree that he shouldn't have been given that responsibility in the first place. And what kind of ship doesn't have emergency backup for this kind of situation? I know, I know, it's fiction. ;-)
     
  19. Simonr1978

    Simonr1978 Deck Sergeant

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    I'd forgotten about that bit on Me2 so maybe I'll have to revise my theory somewhat.

    FWIW though you can't generally just remove rivets, by their nature they need chiselled, cut or flame cut out. I can't recall that scene either, but I'll rewatch the DVD at some point just out of interest if nothing else. In general though, from what we've seen and heard elsewhere in Red Dwarf (Lister's evidence in Justice describing their most important duty as making sure the vending machines didn't run out of chocolate bars, Rimmer's comments in Kryten "We know sod all about space travel, but if you've got a blocked nozzle, we're your lads", etc) it certainly doesn't sound like their duties usually involved anything that technical.

    As for completely blaming Rimmer, no I don't, not entirely anyway. Whilst he should shoulder a good portion of the blame IMO (As ultimately it was his failure to do the work properly that caused the accident), their are clear failures elsewhere. I wouldn't class not having the drive plate under lock and key as a systemic failure necessarily, without knowing exactly what it is or does it's hard to determine, perhaps it's just not realistically practicable to lock it away, perhaps it needs to be permanently accessible for some reason. One clear failing though is why Hollister (Or Holly for that matter) didn't order the airtight doors shut immediately until a proper repair could be made?

    I think even if he was given the task, it was probably done so by mistake though (Hollister's own comments in Rimmer's confidential file, "If a job's not worth doing, give it to Rimmer.") and with anything safety critical like this in the real world, the onus is on the individual technicians to decline to do a job if they're not trained or competent to do so.

    But then, as has been said, this is fiction and if any such sensible measures were taken the crew wouldn't have been wiped out and we wouldn't have Red Dwarf.
     
  20. mtullock

    mtullock First Technician

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    hey I recon by the 23rd century (or which ever one Lister is feeling like at the time) rivets could be sucked out! lol or perhaps they were actually screws and i am mistaken lol. Anyhow it is on the deleted scenes DVD
     

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