Red Dwarf Epsiode Grievences

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by OurJud, Feb 1, 2017.

  1. Wenceslas

    Wenceslas Deck Sergeant

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    I don't think X was so bad. OK I hate Dear Dave, but rest of the series is quite fine.
     
  2. Mardroid

    Mardroid Console Officer

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    I'm not a series 8 hater. They did something different, at least. In terms of quality though, I'd say series X is far better.

    That just shows our different views, I guess. A lot of people dislike series 7 but I really like that one.
     
  3. BigOleDummy

    BigOleDummy Guest

    Well, I like all the series a lot , some more than others of course. But I Think EVERY series has its good points and bad.

    Now to my "grievance" ...... If its been discussed before I'm sorry but I am still newish here ...... Why for the love of everything sacred does Lister wear racist emblems? I've noticed a confederate flag and a K.K.K. symbol at various times on his clothing.
    Confederate battle flag on the jacket, left side waist in at least one episode of season 3. Don't talk to me about "heritage" either, its a symbol for white supremacy and Treason (treason for the American's anyway)
    K.K.K. symbol/patch on knee in I forget which series, but I remember it vividly. Think it was a later series , I'll see if I can find it later.

    But my question/comment is.... WHY? I understand this is a U.K. show, but surely the prop man or whoever put the wardrobe together should have known about these?! Was someone playing a joke on Mr. Charles? If so it was in very poor taste imho.
     
  4. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    I can't say I've noticed either of these symbols on Lister, I'd love to get the specific episode to look them up. They're not quite the same though. A KKK symbol is unambiguously the symbol of a racist organisation, and I would struggle to justify that unless it was worn out of irony, which I wouldn't it put past Lister to do. Whereas not everyone agrees with you about the Confederate flag as you've said yourself. Obviously the Red Dwarf creative team at the time didn't.

    Outside the US it isn't/wasn't necessarily viewed as explicitly and only racist, especially when you go back to series three which was 1989. It is/was viewed as a symbol of being a rebel, associated with bikers and rockers and generally being anti-establishment. Lister is an anti-establishment type and would buy into that. He has a selective grasp of history, so the rebel aspect is probably more important to him than the slavery aspect. You mention it's a symbol of treason against America - Lister's not American, and if anything, a symbol of treason would probably appeal to him. If the Confederate flag is a symbol of treason against America, then is the American flag a symbol of treason against Britain? I once saw an American flag on his motorbike.

    The original punks in the late '70s used to wear Nazi armbands. They weren't doing it to be racist or authoritarian, they were doing it to piss off the establishment. When the Bromley Contingent (a famous group of early punks) appeared on tv, you can see one is wearing a Nazi armband alongside his black punk friend. I imagine Lister is probably wearing it in this spirit.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TnmuIhIueQ
     
  5. Strat-tastic

    Strat-tastic Flight Co-Ordinator

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    That's an interesting point. If someone could nail down the episodes in question please, that would be nice :-)
     
  6. Bluey

    Bluey Science Officer

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    There's a Confederate flag on his jacket in the episode Terrorform. I briefly mentioned it previously at the end of this review. Can't say I've ever noticed Lister wearing a KKK symbol though.
     
  7. AJ Smeggnog

    AJ Smeggnog Second Technician

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    Similarly, the end of Timeslides always irks me: the nonchalant reaction of the crew to Rimmer's death. Rimmer's euphoria of being alive only to be quickly killed off again, what a bummer of an ending :crying:
     
  8. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    I nailed down the KKK patch. It's all through series five on Lister's right knee. Here are some helpful freeze-frames. It'd probably also be helpful to link to the KKK symbol for comparison. I don't know how widely known the KKK symbol is in America, but I certainly couldn't have told you what it was. The KKK are a fringe American organisation, and their symbol would have sailed past a Commonwealth audience unrecognised.

    Why is Lister wearing it? I think he's wearing it ironically. Like, taking possession of it. One has to wonder where he even got a KKK patch from in the UK. I doubt he would have ordered one from America. Maybe there was something Captain Hollister wasn't telling us. Mind you, in Lister's time the currency is Dollarpounds. There's obviously been some sort of US-UK merger, so maybe there is a British KKK in Lister's time (a UKKKK if you will). Note that he's wearing it on his knee, like a knee-pad. He's not wearing it on his chest in a respectful place, he's wearing it on his knee where it would get battered. Like maybe he had a hole in his trousers.

    But who's to say Lister even knows what it is? We don't know if Lister deliberately sewed it on. Maybe he obtained those leathers as is, either pre-Red-Dwarf or from looting some crew-member's locker who was a biker. I don't know, I'm clutching at straws. Lister's a dark horse, only he knows why he was wearing it. And possibly the costume designers.
     
  9. OurJud

    OurJud Deck Sergeant

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    The main saloon bar scene in GotA when Lister pins the baddie cowboy to the wall. The non-speaking extras are terrible in this scene, and Charles' delivery is also poor, especially the way he says, "The name's Brett Riverboat, knifeman."

    I know he's supposed to be slightly unsure of his 'powers', but the delivery bugs me.
     
  10. BigOleDummy

    BigOleDummy Guest

    I'm in he process of re-watching them all till I find it again. Noticed it more than once. Its on his knee, a round white patch with a black cross cutting it into quarters with a stylized red blood drop/flame in the center of the cross. Its in one of the "newer" series. I'm not the only one who noticed it either but sadly the episode isn't mentioned in this article: In the popular culture section here

    Once I find out the episode I'll post where it is. Lol, a good opportunity to re-watch my favorite show!
     
  11. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    The KKK patch is visible throughout series five.

    I reckon Lister doesn't even know or care what it is. I reckon he found those leathers in a locker or a derelict and liked the overall look of them. And even if he recognised it as the KKK symbol, he's the last human alive, stuck in deep space in the year 3000000 with a robot, a cat and a hologram. The KKK and racism are utterly irrelevant to the world he's in. He might as well wear a full-blown KKK outfit for all it matters.

    It is weird though in that someone somewhere in the Red Dwarf creative process said "let's put the KKK logo on Lister's knee". Unless it was much like my in-universe explanation above. Maybe those leathers were already patched up like that, the costume department sourced them wherever they source costumes, and the KKK logo just slipped under everyone's radar because they're English.
     
  12. BigOleDummy

    BigOleDummy Guest

    THANK YOU! I KNEW I saw it. I've been watching them "backwards" trying to find them. By backwards I mean Series 11, then 10 etc. I thought it was in a newer one, don't know why :eek:ops:. On the plus side (for me)....... got to re-watch 11 sooner than anticipated :-D.

    Have no idea why it was included and your hypothesis is as good as any. I guess with the political climate as it is, ESPECIALLY on this side of the pond, I'm more apt to call out something like that. To me the way of thinking that patch (AND the traitorous confederate battle rag) represents are a cancer on humanity and need to be opposed and vilified for what they are.
     
  13. Bluey

    Bluey Science Officer

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    I think it's most likely something along those lines. I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of English people have no idea what the KKK logo looks like - I personally had to Google it. Unlike the swastika, it's not a symbol that most of us in England are familiar with.
     
  14. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    I can totally accept Lister finding them as is and thinking "brutal leathers" and wearing them, not knowing or caring what the symbol is. What I can't accept is Kryten not noticing and asking him. "Mr. Lister sir, why are you wearing the symbol of the Ku Klux Klan, a racist American organisation mainly active in the 20th century?".

    So I figure Lister found them like that and wore them without knowing, then Kryten noticed and told him, but Lister kept wearing them because he didn't care because it's so irrelevant to his situation. It's not like there's any humans around to be offended. We should give him credit for even getting dressed.
     
  15. Mardroid

    Mardroid Console Officer

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    We do know that Kryten purges what he considers to be useless data from time to time. He has mentioned that during two episodes now, I believe. It's quite possible that he was unaware that was a Ku Klux Klan symbol as well (if that's truly what that is).
     
  16. BigOleDummy

    BigOleDummy Guest

    I can assure you that it IS. From personal experience sadly, an ex-father in law and a cousin. Yes I've seen the robes first hand.
     
  17. OurJud

    OurJud Deck Sergeant

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    I haven't really followed this KKK debate, but what I find really interesting is that everyone is talking about Lister and whether or not he knew what the symbol was. Shouldn't we really be asking the same questions but about Doug and Rob???
     
  18. BigOleDummy

    BigOleDummy Guest

    Well, to be truthful I thought of that but was and am still reluctant to go there. Its such an evil ideology that you WANT it to be a mistake, a wardrobe worker not paying attention, unfamiliarity with an admittedly American fringe group ANYTHING but what it "could" be. I tend to discount Doug and/or Rob's "input" in this because after all, they did greenlight Craig and Danny for their parts. Again, I'm assuming they had some control over casting back in the day. If one or both subscribed to this outdated and horrible belief system then I'm sure they wouldn't have o.k.ed either actor.
     
  19. HO HO HO I'M JMC

    HO HO HO I'M JMC Deck Sergeant

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    For the KKK logo - I'm pretty sure the costume designers got hold of a job lot of random patches (or pants with the patches already on) and no one had a clue what it was. As we've seen in this thread, it's not a familiar symbol to Britons. A new one on me, certainly!!

    For the confederate flag - they would have known what it was - but I think the chief association (in the UK, certainly) would have been stuff like the Dukes of Hazzard. It was only a couple of years ago that American outlets like Walmart, Sears, eBay, Google Shopping and Etsy stopped selling memorabilia with that design. So, when series 5 was made, perhaps there was less (international) awareness of the controversy?
     
  20. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    I think this is right. We weren't all plugged into the internet back then, so Americans read American news and Britons read British news. In fact, rather than "less (international) awareness of the controversy", I'd go as far as saying there was "less controversy" full stop, even in America. It was the 2015 church shooting that tipped it over the edge, and we're talking about episodes broadcast in 1992.
     

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