Red Dwarf location in space discovered (inc. pictures)

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by One Time, Sep 8, 2017.

  1. One Time

    One Time Third Technician

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    I was bored and decided to try to find out where in space Red Dwarf should be, taking into account the episodes and the novel. I know there are some inconsistencies overall in the franchise but the initial journey direction and time elapsed are certain.

    So from various sources we know RD sets out from Mimas (a moon of Saturn) to Triton (a moon of Neptune) in 2180/2181:

    From Infinity Welcomes Careful Drivers:

    Been on Mimas long?'
    'Six months.'
    'It's a bit of a dump, right?'
    'It's a lot of a dump.'
    'Wait till we get to Triton. Triton's OK.'
    'Triton?' Lister's brow furrowed. 'We're going to Earth.'
    'Sure, we're going to Earth. But first we've got to go to
    Triton to get the ore to take to Earth.'
    Lister closed his eyes. 'Where's Triton?'
    'Round Neptune .'
    'Oh,' said Lister. 'Neptune. Right.' He took a swig from
    Petersen's nearly-empty whisky can. 'Where's Neptune ?'
    'From here?' Petersen took out a calculator. 'I'll tell you
    exactly.' He punched a lot of numbers into the machine. 'It's
    two billion, seven hundred and seven million miles away.'


    (That line was incorrect, they are on Mimas, in 2180/2181 Neptune will be three billion two hundred thirty three million miles away from Mimas)

    Lister sighed like a burst tyre. 'How long is that going to
    take?'
    'Say, eighteen months,' said Petersen.

    Now they were on their way to Neptune
    (actually: Triton), for Pluto's
    solstice, when Pluto took over from Neptune as the outermost
    planet of the solar system. They'd been travelling for five
    years, and so far they'd only managed to bum their way up
    to Saturn. Still, they weren't in a particular hurry - the
    solstice wasn't going to happen for another fifty years
    (in reality about 75/80 years).



    From the moment he discovered that the cadmium II had achieved
    critical mass, Holly had less than fifteen nanoseconds to act. He
    sealed off as much of the ship as possible - the whole cargo area, and
    the ship's supply bay. Simultaneously, he set the drive computer to
    accelerate far beyond the dull green-blue disc of Neptune in the
    distance, and out into the abyss of unknown space.



    From Mimas to Triton on Mar 23 2181 takes you in the direction of spiral galaxy IC 1417 (248 million ly distant)

    The cruising speed of Red Dwarf is 200,000mph according to page 131 of Infinity Welcomes Careful Drivers. - After 3 million years acceleration (actually 2978075), it is travelling at 669,555,000mph (page 132).

    Working backwards from Krysis, we can calculate that Lister came out of stasis in the year 2978075.


    The distance travelled would be 1.4172563125035002e+22 metres = ~1.5 million light years.

    So a space craft which started travelling from Mimas to Triton in 2181 would yield this view out of the window in 2978075, the moment Holly woke Lister from stasis (if your monitor was a window )

    [​IMG]

    With Andromeda 60 degrees to the left and slightly above:

    [​IMG]


    With the Milky Way covering about 3 degrees of the sky (6 times wider than a full moon viewed from Earth.)

    Andromeda 60 degrees to the left and 50 degrees higher, you would see both easily infront of you.

    As we can see this is well outside the galactic plane. Because these spaces are enormous there is nothing here. The average density being one atom for every square meter. It's empty. The only possibly large scale bodies here are (very) occasional hyper velocity stars which have been ejected from their parent galaxy. These are stars travelling at between 1 and 10 million miles per hour in intergalactic space.

    Even if in the 10 years since Lister came out of stasis RD had continuously traveled at light speed somewhere (which it didn't) it would be 10 units removed from the current 1500000 unit location away from Earth. It would pretty much still be right here.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2017
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  2. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    Amazing work! I didn't realise there was a Google Space nowadays. I'm not big on the novels, read them once and I'm not sure to what extent we can integrate them both.
    This can't be right because this would mean Red Dwarf started traveling in year "0".

    Kryten built in 2340
    Kryten turns 2976000 in Krysis
    = Krysis takes place in 2978340

    We have a thread "What year is it?" which you might want to take a look at.

    2978340
    - 200.25 deep sleep (Ref: Psirens)
    - 50 stasis (Ref: Nanarchy)
    - 5/6 non-stasis from Series I - start of VIII (Ref: Back in the Red I)
    - 9 between VIII & BTE (Ref: BTE I)
    = 2970875
    But - ? VIII, BtE, X, Twentica, Samsara, Give & Take, Officer Rimmer

    So Lister came out of stasis in the year 2970875 but that not factoring time elapsed during VIII, BtE, X and pre-Krysis XI. So probably a couple of years earlier. I'm sure there's an eighteen months later towards the end of VIII, isn't there?

    If Lister went into stasis in 2180 and came out in circa 2970873, it means he was in stasis for circa 2968693 years.
     
  3. One Time

    One Time Third Technician

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    Thanks, the program is called Celestia, it is a free opensource 3D universe simulator.

    The calculation is simple. We know it was headed from Mimas to Triton in 2180. That gives a precise direction. A line from our galaxy to a much more distant point (galaxy IC 1417, 250 million light years away). It accelerated to reach the speed of light 3 million years later (which isn't possible but ok). That gives us distance covered. Any deviation in dates won't change those visuals.

    The important part is the vastness of where it is. The galaxy itself is not traversible, it is so large that even at the speed of light it would take one tenth of a million years to cross it.

    Red Dwarf's location, where that entire galaxy itself is merely the size of a clenched fist held out at arms length, means it is well and truly in the middle of nowhere.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2017
  4. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    But it is obviously a part of space that it wasn't uncommon for mankind to go to. Since Series II we've seen that this part of space contains derelicts, space-stations, even theme parks. A lot of the maths goes over my head, @jmc2000 is your man for that.

    The whole situation has confused me for a long time. On the one had much is made about them being in "deep space" like they're in an impossibly distant void, but they're regularly bumping into all sorts of GELFs, robots, spaceships, etc.
     
  5. One Time

    One Time Third Technician

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    The problem is it's a random point on a trajectory 1.5 million light years from our solar system and well outside the galaxy. For them to be bumping into artificial things such as ships, robots, etc. at the frequency in which they do at this random point in intergalactic space, it would mean that mankind not only colonized the entire galaxy (100 billion stars) and populated the interstellar space between those stars with hundreds of ships and what not. But it would also mean that mankind colonized the much larger empty space outside of the galaxy, the inter galactic space, as well.

    For them to be running into man made objects at the frequency which they do and at the remote location they are, and considering that their direction was random at the outset, so that those man made objects are distributed homogeneously in all directions away from our galaxy (and not only in the specific direction RD happened to be travelling in), it would mean that mankind manufactured quintillions of space faring ships/pods/objects. That's about as many as the total amount of grains of sand combined on all of Earth.

    Wow that's insane!! Next time your on a beach cup some sand in your hand. Imagine as many spaceships as the grains of sand in your hand. Now imagine a handful of the volume of every beach on Earth combined! Not even in 3 million years of continued existence would any species be able to build that many.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2017
  6. Mowgli

    Mowgli Third Technician

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    One Time, you are a true scholar. This thread is everything I've always been too lazy to work out for myself about the Red Dwarf universe :lol:
     
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  7. R.I.P. 2000

    R.I.P. 2000 Deck Sergeant

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    Superb work, @One Time. I will need to digest.
     
  8. R.I.P. 2000

    R.I.P. 2000 Deck Sergeant

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    Okay, I've had a fink. I believe that @One Time has falsified the hypothesis that space was colonised equally in all directions, simply because they couldn't have filled it so densely in every direction. So, there must be one or more linear "corridors" of explored space, pointing away from Earth. This actually makes sense, because ships going further and further into deep space might want to retrace the steps of their predecessors as much as possible - either to build on their discoveries, or perhaps using human settlements as staging posts?

    Why Red Dwarf's exit from the Solar System would be roughly aligned with one such corridor is slightly thorny. Perhaps the empty-spaciness of series 1/2 represents time taken to join the nearest one?

    As an "Explain That", the main problem with @One Time's projection is the fact that it puts Red Dwarf in the emptiness of intergalactic space, which clearly contradicts what we see on screen. I can't fault his logic; Red Dwarf is assumed to be 1.5 million light years away, and the Milky Way is only about 100,000 light years across. So, can I ask: did we project a straight line of travel, or did we factor in the gravity of the galactic centre? Do we know if the ship would have passed near massive objects (including rogue planets and planetoids) that might have altered the direction of travel? I'm wondering if the ship got swept up in gravitational effects - possibly performing one or more "gravitational slingshots" during near-collisions - and ended up orbiting the gravitational centre, rather than leaving the galaxy.
     
  9. BigOleMummy

    BigOleMummy Supply Officer

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    I like that. But I question the need for Holly to take them "out" in the first place. If all he was needing was "time", for the radiation to cool down to livable levels, then he could have just went out past the Oort cloud and maintained a (very) extended orbit around Sol. No matter how "Hot" the Dwarf was it wouldn't have affected any of the other colonies/ships/stations not least because Holly was still capable of outside communication and would have warned anyone getting too close.

    From the history of my Country I think his is correct. When the settlers started moving west, there were (and are to this day in a form) certain corridors that everyone took. well, the ones who wanted to make it alive anyway. The Cumberland Gap Trail - one of the first of the westward expansion. If you didn't come down the Allegheny/Ohio river system you pretty much HAD to go through the Cumberland Gap. The list goes on: The Oregon Trail, The Santa Fe Trail, Mormon Trail and other less traveled ones. These were due to ease of travel, WATER supply (very arid once you get past Missouri), Safety levels (some Native Americans were much more welcoming than others). I see no reason the same principles wouldn't hold up in a Galactic Settlement movement. Ease of Travel = gas clouds/neutron stars would only be a few of the obstacles you might want to steer around. Water supply = could be anything from actual availability of water to the availability of any needed resource. Safety Levels = Again could be anything, were Simulants a "thing" at first? Could be they were started about the same time as Galactic expansion and whos to say when the first of them went rouge. Heck, maybe we encountered Rimmer's Aliens and had a Million year war of extermination, which Holly was either asleep for or had his memory wiped of or even forgot because of computer senility.

    Anyway, specified lanes of Galactic or Intergalactic travel is NOT a far fetched idea.
     
  10. R.I.P. 2000

    R.I.P. 2000 Deck Sergeant

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    Yeah, I've mused on this oddity before. Makes perfect sense to leave the Solar System - in a timeframe of millions of years, asteroid impacts would be inevitable in a "busy" region of space. But why keep going? Why not orbit the sun at a great distance? You're quite right.

    I think we have to hand-wave that as Holly being a bit rubbish :-)
     
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  11. Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century

    Deep_Space_in_the_15th_Century Supply Officer

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    Given all the information we have to hand, it's a reasonable assumption that space must have been colonised in every direction. Given Holly was trying to get Red Dwarf away from people, he wouldn't have traveled out in such a corridor and we're not given any dialogue about Holly locating one for the trip back. If we assume these corridors exist then it must just be a giant coincidence that Red Dwarf happens to be in one.
     
  12. FeeBee

    FeeBee Deck Sergeant

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    I wouldn't be surprised if Holly was in orbit at a distance and just forgot with going senile. They do seem to come across a lot of things that are supposedly appropriate 3 million years from Earth.
     
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  13. BigOleMummy

    BigOleMummy Supply Officer

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    EXCELLENT!
     
  14. Abe but more Halloween themed

    Abe but more Halloween themed Deck Sergeant

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    What if they started off not in a corridor but it became one as they went out?
     

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