Red Dwarf X's influence upon Rimmer

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by DAN_JMC, Nov 9, 2012.

  1. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    No, they weren't. But then, do you really think that Rob and Doug had a 25 year plan in mind for Red Dwarf when they wrote The End? Do you think they sat writing the scene where Lister bemoans never having asked out Kochanski thinking "well this is going to make us look foolish when we have him talk about being dumped by her a few series later"?

    Of course not. They didn't have any long term plan, they didn't even care about continuity from one series to another, they were making it up as they went along and there's no evidence to suggest that Rob Grant wouldn't have fully approved of Dungo being Rimmer's father. So again, what's the issue here? It's not as if we've seen the subversion of some Grant Naylor masterplan.

    Rob's main plan while working on Red Dwarf seems to have consisted of thinking about what he might do next. He was never in it for the long haul like Doug Naylor was. I'm therefore perfectly happy for Doug to shape his universe however he likes and I don't regard the Dungo thing as being anymore canon shattering than Rimmer getting his hard light drive (did that ruin Bodyswap for anyone?). It's just a way to evolve the character.
     
  2. Ally1990

    Ally1990 First Technician

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    @Bruce Fivesyth

    What I see in the show I regard as cannon. Rimmer destroys the time drive, therefore they never existed. I haven't seen Tikka to Ride in ages but, from what I remember, it hardly contradicts it. Doesn't Lister basically say 'everything that happened, happened, and because of that, it never happened but we remember it'. It's the only scientifically logical explanation, anyway.

    In terms of character change I see a clear distinction here. Rimmer was acting in the spur of the moment. His friends were dead, he had nothing to live for, we all would've done it. It was simple enough for him to revert back to his old ways because what spurred him on, his friends dying, was removed. They were back. In The Beginning, he's not getting his friends back, or his dad in this case, and he knows that. Hence a more permanent change, no matter what it is.
     
  3. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    Nah, Tikka (stupidly) rewrites the ending of OOT by having the future starbug blow up the present starbug a second before Rimmer can destroy the timedrive having all his Goodall inspired burst of almost heroism be for nothing...although with an identical effect as his intended actions would have caused.

    It would be really interesting if anyone can ever get Doug's thoughts on why he went for that resolution.
     
  4. BruceFivesyth

    BruceFivesyth Third Technician

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    The comparison with the hard light drive is spurious as I'm sure you must see. Rimmer getting a hard light drive didn't change anything that had happened before after all.

    Of course Rob and Doug didn't have a 25 year plan. And it's because of that that I don't think many fans who watch Series 1 think that that Lister and Kochanski had been in a relationship.

    Similarly the Rimmer from Series 1 to 6 doesn't have a father called Dungo imo. That Lister isn't his own father. Rimmer did destroy the time drive. Lister didn't suffer from claustrophobia etc.
     
  5. BruceFivesyth

    BruceFivesyth Third Technician

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    Indeed.

    @Ally

    Out of interest, do you still consider Rimmer did destroy the time drive? :twisted:

    (That's a genuine question btw and not meant in a smart arsey way)
     
  6. Whisper

    Whisper First Technician

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    There was quite a gap between VI an VII and I remembered being disappointed with the opening of VII. Looking at the ending where Rimmer saves the day I think it's better than that of VII.

    Come to think of it I think RD is better without cliffhangers.
     
  7. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    Exactly my point! Rimmer's anxieties about not having a body as explored in episodes like Bodyswap weren't obliterated or rendered pointless when he finally got a body back in series 6...just as his anxieties and neuroses about being unable to please his father in early episodes aren't obliterated by his later discovery that his Dad was a gardener called Dennis.

    Well that's an odd way to rewatch the show in my view. You had the experience of watching it the first time without the facts revealed in later series. It's not like those experiences have been destroyed. Now you get the fun of watching it knowing these things will occur and funny little moments like the speech in The Last Day actually foreshadowing the truth or seeing Young Rimmer hanging upside down in the greenhouse in Dimension Jump and chuckling at the thought that it's his FATHER'S greenhouse in more ways than one! :lol:
     
  8. Ally1990

    Ally1990 First Technician

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    @Bruce Fivesyth

    As I said, I haven't seen Tikka to Ride in a while. So I went and found the script. From it, it sounds like Rimmer destroyed the time drive and then Starbug was destroyed by the other one. But Rimmer didn't know this and despite his actions, his intentions were good and unaffected by Tikka to Ride. Does he know? Would Lister tell him? How do we know Starbug wasn't blown up by the other one at the same time? Could they be quantum entangled (no, I don't know what I meant by that, either). Could Rimmer have blown up the time drive, but the affect wasn't instantaneous and during this lull Starbug was blown up by the other one? There are usually these kinds of delays with time travel. Back to the Future, anyone?

    There are a lot of unanswered questions and it's very confusing. Did Rimmer destroy the time drive? I'd say 'no', because it didn't change him, and if he had destroyed it, surely it would've changed him. Maybe Rob saw room for progression of the character and Doug didn't. You could even argue that the similarities between Out of Time and The Beginning was Doug's way of finally accepting Rob's point-of-view.

    I'm probably overthinking it, though.
     
  9. Mardroid

    Mardroid Console Officer

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    I'd say that depends on his intention. Whether or not he shot the drive before their future selves destroyed the ship, it seemed to me that his intention was to destroy it. So I think his character progression still counts...
    .... although granted he was reset somewhat in the next episode. Or was he? He actually agreed to go off and be Ace after all, although I suspect he failed in that venture.

    I think he has the cojones to be the better man. The fact Ace is a result of one simple decision is proof of this. (Although it's arguable whether Ace is all that great a person, in some ways.) But, Rimmer lets his mental and emotional baggage hold him back, or pull him back when he makes some progression. Maybe, after The Beginning (an interesting name, when you think of it, having a different implication to what we originally thought) he can let that go. I think his progression will still be glacial, but he'll get there.

    It's curious that he considers the biological parentage important when considering his father's views though considering parentage, in the very real sense, should be the person who brought you up. Someone who is adopted would consider their adoptive father important and still value his opinion after all. However, considering the man who brought Rimmer up, perhaps disregarding his opinions is for the better.
     
  10. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    I think you're giving way too much credit to Rob Grant...why does everything seen as positive in old Dwarf have to be attributed to Rob Grant for some reason? Is it inconvcievable that the ending to OoT might have been Doug's idea or the agreed consensus of both men?
    It's quite a strange logical leap to assume that Rob came up with the idea to make Rimmer do something heroic and years later Doug "came around to his way of thinking" and made Rimmer do something heroic. Especially when its far from the first time Doug has had Rimmer do something heroic.
     
  11. Ally1990

    Ally1990 First Technician

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    It was just an opinion based on the line of thought mentioned earlier, 'why did Doug go a different path with Tikka to Ride'.

    It is entirely conceivable that Rob had little to do with this, in fact, there no way to know for sure. I found comparisons between Out of Time and The Beginning and just wrote down some possible thoughts I had. I wasn't stating any of them as 'fact', merely a collection of possible ideas. In truth, we'll never know what went on between the two men and indeed, it's none of our business. One can speculate all day long, but it'll just be speculation.

    Plus, I did say I was overthinking it.
     
  12. BruceFivesyth

    BruceFivesyth Third Technician

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    I guess my feeling though is that in any show stuff written later on by different writers shouldn't be taken as facts. For example, if I were to re-watch the early series of The Brittas Empire then I wouldn't think, 'this is all a dream that Gordon is having on a bus' because I don't find it credible.

    The same goes for Dwarf imo. There are two separate shows really. Rob and Doug's Dwarf and solo Doug's Dwarf. The tone of them is completely different and I couldn't watch the early series thinking, 'one day these guys are going to play some prison guards in a game of basketball' as an example because that is something from a completely different show.

    I would like to enjoy Doug's Dwarf but the only way I might ever be able to do that is by considering it to be completely separate from 1 to 6.
     
  13. BruceFivesyth

    BruceFivesyth Third Technician

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    I think the truth is probably much simpler.

    Doug had spent a long time researching JFK but didn't have a decent plan of how to incorporate him into the show. He decided to use the time drive so had to rewrite the ending to Out of Time (bad idea) and change how the time drive worked (bad idea again).

    Unfortunately these plot contrivances have been regularly apparent from Series VII through to Series X.
     
  14. Ally1990

    Ally1990 First Technician

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    Yeah, I agree. The JFK story is a good example of a good idea that doesn't pay off. Although the show has always had this problem, it's more prevalent since series 7 started. I think for me, this is one of the things that worked about RDX - it had fewer of these and I think even the ones that did had many redeeming qualities that were enough for me to forget them. Of course, there are many other factors to consider, too.

    The JFK story is a strange one. I've always adored its emotion and idea, but it left me feeling really uneasy about something but I can't work out what.

    I do feel sorry for Doug, regarding series 7. It had already went into production when the partnership split, so he had a lot on his plate and so much pressure. God only knows if they worked on scripts together or talked about ideas for it before the split. It's not an excuse for what came after Out of Time, but it certainly is enough to alter how I view series 7. And I think Doug has got better and better at it.
     

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