Series X G & T Poll Top 20

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by Ianjk78, Feb 3, 2013.

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  1. Seymour_Clufley

    Seymour_Clufley First Technician

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    Where?

    No, I don't tell people how they should think. I tell them how they should spell words correctly. They are objective "tips". As much as anything else, it is irritating to read somebody writing "then" when they mean "than" - I mean really, is it such an effort to read over what you've typed? (Not you, by the way, I don't think you've ever written that.) I grant you it can be irritating to have one's literacy corrected, and sometimes the person doing it is just being malicious/smug/etc. I can only assure you that I am just trying to help people, and to point out to them that they would come across better if they took more care.

    However, when somebody replies to the tune of "huh! it don't matter how you rite, this is 21st sentry bro", I will then get subjective on them, and suggest that they are being slobbish, loutish, and ill-mannered to anyone who might be unfortunate enough to read their lazy dirge.

    No. It is offering an opinion.

    Or do you think that the things one says should not be based on one's personal values and beliefs? No, of course you don't. Not even you would pretend to be that rational.

    Okay, I'm going to say it one more time. The G&T people are free, and I acknowledge they are free, to do whatever they like on their site. Similarly, Mr Barraclough at No.14 is free to leave his house wearing a clown costume with the bottom cut out, antlers, and a strap-on bushy tail - but if he does so he will certainly provoke appraisals of his character by other people which he might not favour. In other words, we are free, but we should use our freedom responsibly and, to whatever extent possible, sensibly. G&T can swear in their podcasts, swear on their website, swear till the cows come home - but I'm going to comment on it, to the effect that they shouldn't, because it makes them look silly.

    (Presumably, they actually agree with me, otherwise they wouldn't have cut down the swearing on their site. So I actually don't know what we're arguing about here.)

    I, genuinely, appreciate your taking the time to make a playlist. Please don't be offended when I say that I will not spend 35 hours watching videos that tell me things I have already worked out for myself, 10 years ago. This stuff is really not eye-opening to me, Freeborn, and I'm surprised that it is to anyone.

    The video I watched, the guy spent 15 minutes building up to the life-shattering revelation that categories don't always fit reality, because reality is complex, but we need categories in order to function. I mean, really, is that actually thought-provoking to you? To me it is glaringly obvious. I'm not trying to show myself as amazingly intelligent or whatever. I just think that stuff like this is obvious to anyone who observes life around him and considers it. I don't need masses of sociological studies to tell me this stuff, I don't need neuroscience or epigenetics to tell me stuff I already know, and I don't need a professor to do it either, certainly not if it takes him fifteen minutes to do it!

    Not so much "conservative" as "moronic". I know, I know, they're the same thing, right? Haw haw guffaw...
     
  2. Seb

    Seb Captain Staff Member

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    I may not agree with you on the subject of G&T, but I'll give you points for that one :lol:
     
  3. Freeborn

    Freeborn Flight Co-Ordinator

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    *sigh* Forget it.

    You've already replied to Seb in regards to your telling Ian that he "should" care what people think. If that's how you feel then fine. Who am I to tell you what to think. ;-)


    :lol: I'm beginning to like you. You crack me up. Obviously I didn't make the playlist specifically for you, or even for myself really. In fact to be honest I didn't even expect you to watch the first part. I'm pleased to proven wrong about that though, even though you apparently found it of no use.

    I really don't want to argue with you (civil discussions are far more preferable), nor do I wish to offend you, but to be honest the reason I initially posted it because you appeared to be arguing against many of the very basic facts you now claim to understand. But again perhaps some of it was lost in interpretation. All I know is that some of the claims you were making (most actually not to me directly, but to various other members) certainly didn't appear to be in-line with said basic understandings in regards to nature and nurture..*shrugs*.

    I'm still not completely sure how much of our human condition you believe to be nature over nurture, as you never actually answered most of my questions in the other thread. Instead you attempted to debunk other posts by other members, all of which adhered to the information in that video, hence my surprise that you now claim to understand such basic information.

    Anyway, from what I can gather you do seem to acknowledge that it's a combination of both (nature and nurture). What seems to be the main, and quite staggeringly different view point is the extent of how much you believe to be caused by nature and hard-wired genetics.

    But hey, one is free to believe what they will. I'm not into trying to debunk people's beliefs, I'm more interested in finding out why they believe the things they do to begin with. It helps a great deal to be able to understand and empathise with the views of others. It can also help us to then question our own learned values too. Once we're able to do that, the conversation can then move towards bridging the differences...unfortunately however, reaching that stage is often easier said than done, as we humans and our (natural) ego's are complex at best of times.

    Anyway, we seem to have steered way off topic now (nothing new there though eh? ;-) ) But I'm more than willing to continue the nature vs nature debate in another thread if you're up for it. Perhaps we could even incorporate a few Dwarfy discussions into it too. Such as:

    "does the new addition to Rimmer's back story in regards to his dad really make a great deal of difference to the back story we had previously been given?" A lot of fans seem quite upset about it, but my short answer would be: No, not much at all really. Although it does potentially explain a lot about old Rimmsie's dispositions.

    Nah maaain, I don't believe "moronic" to necessarily be the same as conservatism...although I do see a lot of cross-over between the two from time to time. :P

    But hey I could and will say the same in regards to Labour and the Lib Dems too, among the majority if not all other political parties within this entangled political mess. Which is why I don't take sides when it comes to political parties.

    PS: Vote Green! :P

    Edit: oops, smegged up the quotes.
     
  4. Seymour_Clufley

    Seymour_Clufley First Technician

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    Well of course people should care what other people think! Surely you're not disputing that?!

    I think you are referring to my disagreements with Valen500 (200? I can't recall) and JMC[another number] about men and women being different. Their position was that the differences are largely, or perhaps completely, socially constructed. My position was not that.

    Well I'm not sure about it either. I think the nature/nurture thing is extremely difficult, and actually quite boring, because we can never know for sure, so the debate just goes around in circles. Every example case seems to contradict another one. Sometimes twins grow up together but very different. Sometimes twins grow up separately but very similar. I don't think we will ever understand where nature ends and nurture begins. However, I think it is extremely likely that certain things are hard-wired, or at least certain tendencies are hard-wired, and that nurturing should take that hard-wiring into account so as not to cause conflicts or confusions. For example, it is very obvious that men are generally practical and women are generally perceptive/emotional; I think it is therefore a mistake to push women into engineering jobs etc. I gave evidence in the thread, including a personal account from a friend, to support that view. Of course somebody decried anecdotal evidence, plural not data etc., and I gave a pretty cutting response to that, which fell on deaf ears; some people are just in love with academia and officialdom!

    I am sorry if I didn't answer your questions in that thread. To be fair, it was absolutely buzzing with activity and at one point I was fielding questions from three or four different people (or at least it felt that way!) so that may explain why I neglected to answer your points. It wouldn't have been deliberate.

    I'm not quite clear what you're saying here. Other people's points adhered to the video, and I attempted to debunk them, and therefore it is surprising that I now claim to understand them? Surely I can claim to understand something while also disagreeing with it?

    You seem to be saying that, if I understand a viewpoint you agreed with, then I would have to concede that it was true. Well, who knows? Maybe that is correct.

    I also find it staggering, in the opposite direction. But I think that people always have reasons, you could even say personal agendas, for believing that nurture is all-important - namely, it provides a justification for massive state intrusion into child-rearing.

    Funnily enough, I'm exactly the same. :-)

    Oh... I don't want to get into that just now. It would require a discussion of class, which is itself a thorny subject regarding which I would undoubtedly irritate quite a few people.

    I feel the same about modern liberalism. Egalitarianism, for example... it's almost hilarious.

    Anyway, I don't know how the PM system works here, whether it alerts you, but a few hours ago I sent you a (lengthy, I'm afraid) dissection of that unbelievable "I'm a conservative" video you linked to. You should check your inbox. I certainly look forward to your reply...
     
  5. dodgebizkit

    dodgebizkit Deck Sergeant

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    I'm sorry to interject, especially with such intellectual matte, but wouldn't it be more productive to discuss a more constructive issue, such as bacon? Mmmmmm bacon!!!!


    I agree that any professional site should always use perfect spelling, punctuation and grammar (checked over by someone of youz being wun ov dem Lyk dislexy fingz) unless used for ironic or comedic effect or it is SIC (and not just sick).
    Swearing to iterate a point where other words wouldn't quite express it would also appear more professional and wouldn't degrade the overall quality or professionalism of the piece/site, but just seemingly random/childish swearing or swearing at the reader/listener paints you as moronic and unprofessional from the start and you have no way of winning back the reader or listener, first impressions and all that.

    Writing on a forum is different- shorthand net-speak is fine but can make you appear to be a 14 year old (and you might get offered sweets to sit in a van with one or two old men from the forum :P), using "your" instead of "you're" also is fine but won't present you as the sharpest knife in knife land, though it is a vast improvement over "ur" which again regresses you to 14 year old status and getting messages about meeting up to stroke someone's puppies :P on the other hand I often am victim of the autocorrect/mobile typos when I make long posts from a mobile device with a small screen, which I'm not too bothered about on the whole as I generally write my posts in perfect or near perfect prose so there's nothing wrong with the odd bad-hair day as I generally present myself well. Prose and cons. I'd never dream of publishing an article full of typos and bad grammar or punctuation though. It's all about presenting yourself well and representing your site. The difference between greeting with a handshake wearing a suit and tie while well groomed and on best behaviour, verses arriving 10 minutes late looking like you just woke up, wearing an "iPood" tee shirt, smelling of B O and greeting with "yo wassup mate!".
    Nothing wrong with either way, if you own a site but I know what I'd prefer. And I know which kind of sites I prefer to read.
     
  6. SgtSmileyUK

    SgtSmileyUK Console Officer

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    So you still put me down - dunno why you still feel the need to continue with your pathetic crap,I said nothing more after profusely apologizing and explaining even though you failed to recognize the intended humour, ITs ok for you and your bumchums to put everyone else not in your clique down , but woe betide any who answer back.
    I joined your site as it seemed liberal and offered you guys the chance to be the first to get a look in with the game I made.
    I simply thought you would be happy to recieve a free , fun present and perhaps create something fun that we could all be a part of.I thought you would be excited to be able to play Red Dwarf and envisaged yourselves as people who would be eager to join in this fun opportunity.but...
    As I was new to your site,I made an error by posting in the wrong thread, was castigated (and as it appeared your members were a bunch of fun loving micky taking mob ),I sarcastically replied to the chide and created the thread I should have done in the first place, only for some immature comment to once again derail the thread by telling me not to derail others threads when it was alread apologized for, and so I defended myself, then your crew began the relentless 'bullying' harassment of myself ,thus somebody ,(who I have no ties with , never met), also spotted this behaviour by your crew and stuck up in my defence, to which we all slagged each other off,(we actually thought you were all playing along with this nonsense in good fun) only to wake up the next day to find that you had banned us, publicly slagged us off with no means of furthur defending ourselves and you didnt do yourself any justice when, even though I had apologized numerous times, you failed to see what was in front of your face, and of course youll get backed up by your friends ,one of who unfortunately is also biased against us because of the failure to really work things out correctly, no names mentioned in case of being sued. your site has numerous references to mental health issues being treated as jokes , ala man in London Fountain, and another very strange looking person doing very strange things on a video or avatar animation to which was declared to be me, after I had mentioned mental health issues.
    That was the harassment I suffered from trying to do a nice thing and share something great with you. I do not control Dodge (or any other random supporter/defender), or anyone elses thoughts,postings etc, yet if he makes a comment, you will tar me with the 'knob' brush. even though I have not once mentioned this matter again and decided to let bygones be bygones. You say Actionable? I say laughable.
    Why cant you all grow up a tad, accept the apologies, apologize for your own low behaviour, and move on away from your own personal hatred of me, I am not gonna steal your slimelight lardy. but your behaviour is gonna continue to show yourself in a negative light.
    I really wasnt gonna pay your purile comments any attention but if you think you have actionable causes to sue Dodge , I will back him all the way. just be careful who you are labelling with what. I hope you meet a lot of people with Mental Issues at Dimesion Jump, maybe then youll apologize for your words. Knob-indeed.

    I regret starting this project and am finding more and more reasons to quit. Thats what Negativity does. I fail, you fail ,we all fail. Im the only one MAN enough to admit my failings, and faults. you IAn are a little boymindset, you forget you even put portsmouth down (not your area- are you really indifferent to difference?. I invited you for a cuppa and a chat and you said youve recently been to portsmouth, a trip not likely to be repeated in a hurry- you didnt enjoy it, so decided this was my fault??PRick
    balls to this, balls to you and balls to it all.

    I hope everyone is watching carefully what happens next......
     
  7. dodgebizkit

    dodgebizkit Deck Sergeant

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    The funny thing is the "actionable" activity was carried out by those on that forum and this they could potentially be sued - Internet provides anonymity which is often used as a shield to hide behind and behave in was we would not do in real life, but that doesn't offer legal immunity and what would be classed as bullying (and when adults are involved it no longer involves parent responsibility but legal responsibility) and harassment through verbal abuse is constituted through means of text and the use of images on the Internet. This is particularly serious when it is made abundantly clear that the victim(s) is/are handicapped in someway, mentally in this case. If I cared more I would get more information to post as the wife is an international rights lawyer. I wasn't going to give our "forum buddy" here to time of day as I don't feel he is worthy of my time or energy, I just wanted to let you know that you shouldn't let his attempt to make you live in fear of opposing him with the word "actionable", bullying doesn't wash with me, and if you want to push for any legal action, the wifey and I shall be happy to oblige with any assistance that we may offer.
     
  8. Freeborn

    Freeborn Flight Co-Ordinator

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    Woah there pickle! Okay so I've now read you're novella-length email (a bold statement coming from me, I know!) and quite frankly, I honestly have no idea where to start. You've completely blown my mind, sir! ...but don't worry, I'm not going to go into too much personal detail here. If I send a full reply I will do so via PM.

    But tbh I feel I should be passing the message onto someone else, 'cause I'm certainly not the person you think I am, by a loooong shot. Your analysis of me and what you think I believe in and support is way off base. I am not "them"...or that other person you mentioned of whom supports socialism. I sympathise with your disposition, but I would ask you to please stop judging me on all these so called "Leftists" you seem to hold so much anger toward. Seriously, whilst I actually agree with much more of what you wrote than you seem to realise (hence my confusion upon reading certain parts of your message), the majority of your email is, I'm afraid, extremely misguided, deeply disturbing and brimming over with mass amounts of wrongability.

    I will admit that you have managed to genuinely get under my skin on this forum (twice now, including the email you sent), which is actually very rare, so congratulations, you have successfully managed to genuinely irritate me.

    However, I also fully admit that I am far from perfect, I tend to project a bit from time to time and sometimes my sarcasm, self-satire and ambiguity perhaps doesn't do me any favours sometimes, and so I do take some responsibility for your ignorance and misguided false perception of me. I've been misunderstood many times in my life, but you sir surely deserve a prize for such a terrible judge of character and inaccurate assessor of situations.

    I genuinely apologise for the amount of fear and anger that video seems to have caused you, but it's clear to me that your email wasn't actually directed just at me at all, in fact I can't help but feel much of it may have been pre-written from arguments you've had with other people (so-called "leftists" to use your over-used phrase) in the past, as the majority of it is not even relative to me or what I stand for. Your lazy categorization of me is, at times, quite literally laughable...and other times, genuinely disturbing.

    I admit to posting that "controversial" video to gage your reaction and to get your take on it, but I certainly didn't intend for it to upset you so much. And for your information, while I do agree with a large portion of the info in the video I do not necessarily subscribe to everything the "boys" or Dr Oliver James say, for they, like you appear to be biased in certain ways. And hey, perhaps I am too!..But I'm working on that. We're all just trying to figure out this complex web we call society.

    See, I often post things to get people thinking, and yeah perhaps to strike a nerve from time to time - but not to genuinely antagonise and offend in the way you seem to believe. And I don't mean any of this in a condescending way. I don't claim to be more intelligent than most by any means - 'tis in the hope of broadening the general discussion(s) and to learn , understand and empathise with the views and beliefs of others. It's the only way we humans, of whom are one race, can and will ever bridge our differences and learn to accept our wonderful diversities (which is something else you seem to have convinced yourself I'm against...baffling!).

    The kind of information you fear governments (or "the state") having control over in order to brain wash us is incredibly important information for us to understand if we're to take responsibility for our own so-called "destiny!...do you understand?

    Understanding social science is important. Understanding and accepting what it can teach us is important (which does NOT mean just blindly believing everything social scientists say!) - even if it goes against our pre-existing beliefs and ideologies! Technical Science is also very important! Even religion can be and has been a very positive thing on various levels, regardless of those who abuse it!

    The blame does not lie with science and technology, or whatever else or whichever academic discipline or "sub-race" you try to push the blame onto...and no, before you categorise me yet again, I'm not calling you a racist, I am however suggesting that you're somewhat misguided and dishonest (most notably with yourself) when it comes to certain complex issues.

    I would politely suggest that you take my posts with a pinch of salt in future and don't let my "controversial" views get to you so much. After all I'm just a brainwashed Marxist-communist leftist, right? :roll:

    pst, for your information, what you may find once you look beyond the self-satire in some of my posts is that I am actually not "left wing", "communist", "Socialist", "Anarchist", "atheist", "Marxist", (your wacky interpretation of)"liberally minded" or any other subjective and/or rhetoric BS you try to label me with. And I certain don't have faith in the health care system or "the state" as you seem to believe I do (for whatever misguided reason).

    My views may hold certain things in common with various ideologies, but usually for very different reasons than that of which you wrongly presume. Some times ideologies, including religion are correct about certain things. But I also disagree with many of their beliefs too. For example while I do indeed feel Karl Marx was very much correct about some things, I also think he was massively misguided and very, very wrong about a lot of things too. This extremist pigeon holing many of we humans tend to indulge in needs some serious self-regulation at this point if we're to move forward in a safe and healthy manner.

    Please try not to leap to so many random assumptions about me. I may massively disagree with many (but certainly not all) of your world views, but as I said I honestly didn't mean to offend you so much simply by posting a bloody video. I understand and empathise with your fear, anger and apprehension...but fear and anger will do you no favours, my friend.

    I am not against you. I'm not your enemy. Please try to remember that we're all in this together. And not a one of us are perfect. It's more than likely that non of us are right about absolutely everything, and probably never will be. And there is no such thing as a perfect system - I have never and would never claim otherwise! All healthy systems are emergent, and non will ever reach perfection, for perfection doesn't exist, and never will.

    We are all socially conditioned - we are all 'victims of culture' to one degree or another, and until we accept and become open to that reality, and learn to empathise with others (easier said than done, I know!), these unfortunate misunderstanding will continue to cause much unnecessary conflict in the world.

    I may or may not reply to your email. I would sincerely like to give you the courtesy of replying, but at the moment, as I said I honestly don't know where to start at this point. This reply has become way longer than I intended, so God knows how long my reply to the email you sent me would need to be. I may have to get it printed in paperback...But when I have a bit more time, and when I'm feeling up to it I will give it a go.

    Peace, Love, Truth, *Equality and sustainability...and empathy.

    *Not your oversimplified definition of the term "equality", for that can not and will never exist, as you quite rightly pointed out yourself...see, we do agree on at least some things. Who'd have thunk it eh?
     
  9. Freeborn

    Freeborn Flight Co-Ordinator

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    Okay, *ramble mode re-engaged* [possibly for the last time...well, okay not literally the last time, but for a while] :-)

    In regards to this ongoing argument as to who was "right" and "wrong", or who was "bullying" who during that unfortunate indecent on g&t, I think it's probably for the best to just let it go now. This is easier said than done of course, as I know all too well. But the fact is that this kind of natural cause and effect will likely continue to emerge if people keep bringing this thing up again - yes I know I have been guilty of doing the very same myself, and I was wrong to do so.

    I feel that Ian may have projected a tad in his (understandably) defensive response to what was said about his site and it's members on here, and I would agree that the name calling was uncalled for. But hey, he is only human, as are you and I. And I think it only natural to expect some kind of response to what was brought up yet again. And lets face it, peeps, projecting is something we humans tend to 'marvel' at (I myself for example have mastered the art to perfection)...unfortunately.

    My buddy, Sgt knows how I feel about his part in that initial indecent, so I wont bring that up again as I happen to have much respect for those who are able to admit to their own fallacies, of which we all have of course, not a one of is perfect by any means. I genuinely believe his intentions were pure in sharing his RD game with the fan community, and I sincerely hope he doesn't pull the plug on it, not only so not to see all his good work go to waste, but also for selfish reasons, as I've been meaning to check the game out myself.

    Put simply, I think there were misunderstandings and projections on both sides during that whole entanglement of human discourse.

    @ Danny, with all due respect, I appreciate that you were offended by some of the comments made at that time, but if we continue to dwell on the past and keep bringing such unfortunate issues back up again, then naturally, one is going to want to defend themselves, regardless of "who started it".

    This is what I mean by the "Natural cause and effect" inherent to these kind of situations. I'm trying to look beyond who is perceived to be "right" or "wrong" here...sometimes it's just best to let these things go...said I in a somewhat admittedly contradictory manner...what!? I never said I was perfect either! ;-)

    And indeed I will aim to take my own advice in this respect too...Perhaps I'll make a personal video ("Fathers and Sons" stylee ;-) ) - talking to myself so to speak..to myself, so to speak. So I can look back and take my own advice whilst in emotionally projectile mode...'cause, well, I don't know if you guys have noticed or not, but we humans tend to be better at giving advice then taking our own...which is...unfortunate to say the least.

    Anyway. ONWARDS! >>

    Peace and Luurve.

    ps: the self-directed video idea is actually influenced not by the F&S episode, but on a serious suggestion by a very intelligent and successful young man by the name of Myles Dyer. Credit where it's due and all. :-)


    *Link may or may not contain strong language - can't actually remember either way tbh*

    Edit: Trying to sort the darn link out....gah, I give up. I didn't mean it to start halfway through. Ah well.
     
  10. dodgebizkit

    dodgebizkit Deck Sergeant

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    Then:
    Lol.:-D
     
  11. Freeborn

    Freeborn Flight Co-Ordinator

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    Be sure not to miss my second post, Danny. I think I posted it as you were typing yours.

    Speaking of which, in what way did my post make you "lol"? Just curious really. :-)
     
  12. SgtSmileyUK

    SgtSmileyUK Console Officer

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    perfect example of snap judgemental decisions.
    Not everyone has the insight and may benefit from another point of view,experience. Im grateful to learn new things outside the propaganda machine of fear and hatred towards the rest of the world be it regional or international. we have a responsibility to share our thoughts in order to teach others on attitudes and changing ourselves for the better good, whether we want to or not, mankind should never stop striving to improve itself otherwise what was the point in becoming civilised? Should we all go tarzan to monkeys bottoms on everyone because they like red broccolis? no we can change.

    why do people assume the worst? I sincerely thought that (with Red Dwarf being Comedy),the fans would be more fun filled and jocular jointed. And would assume that humour is the central point of focus within our friendly taunts, banter amongst comrades. I suppose we should expect a few anally rimmer like pedantics and should maybe shut up and go along with them for the sake of peace (which is the path I chose to take until targeted needlessly once again.)
     
  13. dodgebizkit

    dodgebizkit Deck Sergeant

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    So I'm no longer someone who was posting stupid comments, for which you weren't surprised that I was banned for, and I'm no longer just some guy that posts pictures to state "look how cool I am, look at how how my wife is!!!"?

    Good to hear :P
     
  14. Jo TORDFC

    Jo TORDFC Second Officer Fan Club Team

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    Funny thing about the internet is that it doesn't provide instant personal information about everyone posting on it.
    So if someone turns up on a forum and their first post is pimping their own project/product, they then react incredibly aggressively to some ribbing and bring along a mate to verbally attack a few more forum regulars, you don't actually know anything about them. You don't know if they have a disability, how could you know? So halfway through a sh*tstorm of your own making, accusing people of bullying you because you have a disability is utterly ridiculous.
     
  15. SgtSmileyUK

    SgtSmileyUK Console Officer

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    YYYYYYYYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
    bored now.
     
  16. Presuming Ken

    Presuming Ken Deck Sergeant

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  17. Seymour_Clufley

    Seymour_Clufley First Technician

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    Hello again, Freeborn.

    Well, I didn't mean to do that.

    You're a slippery character, Freeborn. You should be more direct - less of the sarcasm, self-satire and ambiguity - then people wouldn't misunderstand you so much. If I have badly assessed the situation or judged your character, I have to say that would be pretty unusual for me, though of course it is very possible.

    Now, you mustn't think that I have spent huge amounts of time trying to "work you out". Not at all. I have gone on things you have said on the forum. Indeed, for each belief I have attributed to you, I could cite the "evidence" in your postings. If that led to incorrect ideas, yes of course it could be because of the "lost in translation" thing that happens with online communication, or it could be because I'm just a bad judge of character, but it could also be due to your deliberate (and, I suspect, enjoyed) ambiguity.

    It didn't cause me any fear. None whatsoever. But it did make me angry. It angered me that two know-nothing idealists could have the brass nerve to make an educational video about conservatism when their own understanding of conservatism is, not just skeletal, but factually wrong. It angered me further that a learned man (Oliver James) would come out with such self-serving, indulgent drivel about conservatives. But, as I said in my PM to you, academics can be like that. Intelligent people are actually quite dangerous in that they can find ways to believe - or at least justify for other people - anything they want.

    There's obviously a need for some clarification here. Most of what I wrote was intended to address the points made in the video. I guessed (incorrectly?) some of your beliefs from your own postings, and addressed them too. But the vast majority of my PM was addressing the video. Of course, I could have sent it to those two boys who made the video - but I consider you more intelligent than them, and perhaps more reasonable. They are just a pair of naive youngsters. I imagine that the real world will hit them some time soon, and maybe 10 years from now that video will be quietly, embarrassedly, deleted from Youtube.

    Nope. I wrote the whole thing yesterday morning.

    The two boys in that video are absolutely, undoubtedly, leftists - whether they define themselves by that label or not. But I realise you are referring to the scope of my email, in which I railed against quite a few other leftists. I admit that they are my bugbear. There's no denying it! Though a lot of the Old Left have a lot in common with conservatives like me, I find the New Left to be generally utopian, maladjusted and psychopathic. Denying human nature, which so many of their ideas do, is the reason I consider them psychopathic. They are also amazingly driven, in the material sense, towards selfishness. An example of one such person in the news right now is Sir David Nicholson, a former member of the board of the Communist Party of Great Britain, who happily took £270k/year while 1200 patients died under his purview. Nice guy. A caring guy. Bureaucrats of the world, unite!

    I have to say, you seem quite easily disturbed, Freeborn! ;-)

    Well, it didn't really upset me. It irritated me. But in any case, I hope your gauging my reaction has been worthwhile.

    One other thing. You quote the word "controversial" twice. I never described the video as controversial. In fact I consider it utterly uncontroversial. A lot of the ideas, stupid though they are, are very mainstream, and taught by trendy lecturers in universities across the West.

    I don't think you're malicious, Freeborn. But I do think you are very evasive. I think you should question why you value ambiguity, self-satire and sarcasm so much. With regard to beliefs, it is very easy to say "I don't believe A. And I don't believe B, either. And, no, you think you've got me but I actually don't believe C, either! Eh? How about that...? I'm a real mystery, aren't I? Going to ask me about D and E? Well, I might believe them or I might not; you'll just have to guess!" It is much harder to say, "I believe X, and here's my reasoning".

    I don't know how you could have got the idea that I think you're against diversity. You seem to me like someone who's very much for diversity, in every field.

    I understand completely. But let's be clear what we're talking about here. I used the phrase "basic human nature" several times:

    "People tend to be quite insular regarding race, in that they prefer the company of their own kind - that is just the most basic human nature. I have seen it time and again. You may disapprove of it - I may disapprove of it - but it is a part of the human condition, and it is extremely presumptuous to berate people for it and try to "re-program" them... [snip]... Could it not be that people, quite frankly, find other cultures funny? Not in the sense that they want to humiliate or destroy that culture and its adherents, but just in the sense that it is strange and novel, and for that reason alone, "Johnny Foreigner" is amusing? I admit that that could translate into hatred/fear, but I think that to bemoan that is to be at war with basic human nature."

    And you responded:

    "I can't help but feel deeply concerned (and somewhat depressed) when people use the "basic human nature" argument to support their learned cultural values, traditions and personal opinions. What year is this? Where am I? Have we discovered the biological and social sciences, neurobiology and epigenetics yet? Or are we still judging human nature(s) on ancient assumptions, over-simplifications and comforting traditions?"

    You might not realise it, Freeborn, but that paragraph is littered with hard left ideas, which is why I naturally assumed you were pretty left-wing. I'm not saying you're a Marxist but, judging by that paragraph, you are absolutely plugged into cultural Marxism, and also Scientism. Assuming that the paragraph was not sarcasm, self-satire or some other type of evasion, here are some things you believe and/or how they could potentially be extrapolated:
    • there is no such thing as basic human nature
    • people who believe in "basic human nature" are just trying to hold onto outdated myths, which they justify with a spurious idea about humanity being limited by its nature
    • humanity is not limited
    • it concerns and depresses me when people suggest that humanity is limited
    • I need to believe that there are no limits to human potential, no boundaries, etc., because otherwise I get depressed
    • cultural values and traditions are learned; they don't spring from any objective truth, but were just invented by people who were less sophisticated than me, and less observant of human nature - which I deny exists in any meaningful way, because...
    • if we know enough about how the brain works, we will be able to control it
    • people in possession of this complete knowledge of the brain would not use it to do harm, or to control populations etc.
    • people (governments, corporations, dictators) intent on doing harm or controlling populations would, for some reason, ignore this readily available complete knowledge of the brain which science had procured. Presumably they'd just keep using crass and inefficient methods to control people etc.
    • I have no need of comforting traditions
    • I have no need of assumptions
    • I don't over-simplify
    • traditions etc. are out-moded and laughable. I have faith in science. Science will improve us.
    • the means by which science will improve us will not be commandeered by bad people, to degrade us

    Now obviously I have done a lot of extrapolating there, and you might feel that I have twisted your original words. Perhaps, reading your original words now, you don't even agree with them anymore, or never did in the first place. But let's get serious. When you say that complete knowledge of human nature is necessary for us to reach our "destiny" (a very religious choice of word, by the way), you are opening the door to a tool of control, manipulation and brutality that every dictator and totalitarian regime in the history of this planet has dreamt of having.

    Of course, nothing I have said above refers to the scientists themselves who would have this knowledge. Are you really sure you could trust them with it? At the risk of some twit citing Godwin's Law, I am going to mention Dr Josef Mengele.

    In case anyone else is reading this, I want to state that the way Freeborn has phrased that could be rather misleading. I do not believe in "sub-races", and I do not lay the "blame" for anything upon any races.

    Interesting. Perhaps you can enlighten me via PM?

    You said that fear of government having total knowledge of the human mind is "paranoid tot". That suggests you have a huge amount of faith in the state.

    What things do you feel Marx was correct about? In what way(s) was he misguided?

    They were assumptions, Freeborn, but they were not random.

    I appreciate that, and I'm glad you've gone out of your way to tell me it. Something you need to know about me is that I do really like debating. Now, of course I can see that when you posted that video and asked "what say you to this", you didn't expect a response of such length. So it would have been rather startling. But, now you know that I like debating, and analysing, and understanding. ;-)

    Why not? Do you think that there are no things in the modern world that, reasonably, elicit fear and anger? And aren't those emotions as good a starting point as any for devising a response?

    What about "beneficiaries of culture"?

    It's quite an interesting thing you've said there, about misunderstandings being due to social conditioning and people being victims of culture. Don't you think that misunderstandings can happen just as easily, perhaps even more easily, with culture having nothing to do with it? What I mean is, two people can misunderstand each other very easily, can't they? Even if they're of the very same culture.

    Well, I think you should reply to it. I spent about three hours writing it, and I would be interested in your thoughts. Believe it or not, I actually think that you and I could have some very interesting conversations. :-)
     
  18. dodgebizkit

    dodgebizkit Deck Sergeant

    Messages:
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    It was ribbing when the forum members were doing it but it was aggression when someone new did it? I smell double standards :P
     
  19. dodgebizkit

    dodgebizkit Deck Sergeant

    Messages:
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    Sooooooo.... To bring this thread to a conclusion:


    People type too much.
     
  20. SgtSmileyUK

    SgtSmileyUK Console Officer

    Messages:
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    Location:
    Portsmouth UK
    Jo Sharples wrote:

    Funny thing about the internet is that it doesn't provide instant personal information about everyone posting on it.
    So if someone turns up on a forum and their first post is pimping their own project/product, they then react incredibly aggressively to some ribbing and bring along a mate to verbally attack a few more forum regulars, you don't actually know anything about them. You don't know if they have a disability, how could you know? So halfway through a sh*tstorm of your own making, accusing people of bullying you because you have a disability is utterly ridiculous.


    I tried to explain myself to them about how the confusement came about and offered countless apologies and even moved on from it all,
    I never accused anyone of bullying me because of my disability. I was trying to explain before people got hurt.
    pimp my product? I wanted to share something not sell something.how about people writing scripts in here and blogs,music and pictures are they all trying to pimp their products too?
    I actually suggested they may want to join the other forums as they seemed likeminded ,in order to draw the badness away from this family site before things got out of hand.but of course everything snowballed as we all know and then somebody accused me of telling the forums owner to f off when in fact they had got that wrong, and I had to prise an apology which obvious means not a lot to a lot of people. and everybody involved in the whole debacle had equal parts to play , no matter how many times I apologized people kept giving and didnt like the returns that either myself or A.N. Other gave back. fair enough we got banned- whoopee do dah. which meant you could say what you liked about us controlling the situation in your favour alongside all your friends which is nice that they are loyal, shame they are mostly low wits.

    So I let it go. but somebody else didnt who I restate again has nothing to do with myself other than conversing on the forums in a very short space of time.If Im really honest I was uncomfortable that the subject reared its ugly head again in the first place but I do not control what people type here, otherwise Id have you all typing nice things because at the end of the day I firmly believe everybody is special and we need everybody to collectively show the children of the future that there is indeed a future.

    so Ian pops up to defend his site ( good for him I would do the same.) I just dont know why he had to have two pops at me in his defence. I understand his anger and yours but I say this to you all again., you have got me wrong. I have apologized so many times and you still make me feel like an outsider, never welcome in your society. thats ok I dont wanna be part of Fake selfishness. all you do is lie, lie ,lie.
    the goddam ball was out.
     
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