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Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by Springyard, Feb 15, 2016.
That was just one of many errors and plot holes in that episode, it's a shame because IMO it's otherwise a good episode but there's a lot of mistakes which bother me more personally.
Well usually the writers go to great lengths to maintain scientific accuracy, and Kryten should have been the one to point out to Rimmer that the Anno Domini system for counting years under the Gregorian calendar counted from the year that Dionysius reckoned that Jesus was born in. If Jesus really was 30 years old in the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar's reign, then Dionysius's calculation was correct to within just 1-2 years. But that's going by how we count a person's age. It changes if his age is counted from the point of conception (which I believe is how some cultures at the time counted a person's age inclduing at least some Jewish cultures). If that's the case then it is possible for Jesus to be born in 1 AD and then turn 30 in 29 AD.
I agree Kryten should have done that it would have been really funny...
PS not sure about the scientific accuracy either...another error on your part
Accuracy? In Lemons? Don't make me laugh.
I've said this before elsewhere on this forum, but there are numerous plot-holes and errors in Lemons. Some of the ones that I picked up on.
- At this stage in history English as a recognisable language would not exist for about 1,500 years, so for anyone travelling to Albion would be of absolutely zero benefit.
- There were plenty of fruits and vegetables native to the British isles that could have been used to build the battery so there was no need to make what would be a very hazardous journey (Just crossing the channel would have been pretty risky), and in any case both Rimmer and Kryten have electronics, why couldn't they have been used to power the remote?
- The Indian lemon seller seems remarkably well travelled, don't you think? And remarkably indifferent to the quite gruesome deaths her family suffered.
- Galvanising as a process would not exist for around 1,500 years and in any case is irrelevant since it's the zinc in the coating that reacts, not the iron in the nails.
- Why are Roman soldiers in India? The Roman Empire never reached that far. And why are these particularly Roman soldiers pursuing the son of a chicken thief (Not even the thief himself) most of the way across the known world like some ancient INTERPOL?
- For Jesus son of the chicken thief to be able to read at all is as near an impossibility as makes no odds, for him to be able to read and comprehend a book printed in a language and writing style that would not exist for a considerable amount of time makes it even less likely.
I appreciate that Red Dwarf isn't hard sci-fi and there have often been a few inconsistencies, errors and plot holes in there, but in this case practically every point that the story hinges on once they arrive on Earth is wrong or at best highly dubious. By comparison the date being out by a year seems pretty trivial IMO.
I could happily roll the years back to before internet forums and people telling me that I didn't enjoy watching something and that I really think it was crap.
I DID enjoy RDX and will continue to do so anytime I want to watch any of the episodes.
Why didn't someone help Rimmer with that ruddy drive plate? Where was the 1st technician? Would have solved so many problems.
Finally, the RIGHT question has been asked.
Well it wasn't funny how it was if Rimmer can't count up 22 years from 1. Everything else in the episode regarding the historical life of Jesus was consistent, including the fact that he had a brother named Judas (not to mention Joseph, Simeon, and James).
You mean travelling from Albion. And no English was in no way recognisable, although there was old Latin. But Old Latin was confined pretty much to Italy in the early part of the first century, it certainly wasn't spoken in most of the Roman empire, in India, or in Albion.
Kryten does yes. We would assume he runs on more than 8 volts of power, but that said I do find it difficult to believe that he didn't have transformers that could convert to to 8 volts (and there would be parts of his system that run on lower power in any case, such as his opticals). But you could argue that ripping out power transformers would have been difficult without the modern electrical equipment to de-solder them from their boards without damaging other components.
That said I don't know exactly what fruits they had available in first century Albion, but I'd be interested to know the answer to that. If they were all wild fruits and berries they may not have been of much use. There would have been plenty of fruits that would have been suitable for use as their battery in the Roman Empire though.
It's not impossible. That scene reeked of pro-colonialism. Human sacrifice was not exactly a wide-spread thing in first century Albion. Though where it was practised was viewed favourably by those that did it, so if it was the case I would expect to speak well of it. But. With that said, it wasn't practised by very many cultures, and not at all in the Roman Empire who viewed it as barbaric. Animal sacrifices were the norm in the ancient Roman Empire, and in India.
Also true. It would be possible for Roman Soldiers to travel there on business, but unlikely due to its distance from the Mediterranean Sea, and peace in India was probably not a high concern for the Romans, at least not as high as peace within their own Empire.
I disagree that peasants couldn't read Greek. There is evidence to suggest that literacy in the ancient world was much higher than has previously been thought, but writing itself was rarer due to the high cost of materials. Plus, as far as ancient languages went, first century Greek was a highly developed written language and fairly easy to understand. But no he couldn't have read English, even if he understood Latin, since it was much more similar to Greek than it was to modern English.
They didn't get everything wrong, at least they didn't darken the teeth of the ancient people. They got the name of the Celtic gods in Albion right (Toutatis, Esus, and Taranis), though the method of their human sacrifices appears inconsistent with literature. Removing the kidney stone was again accurate.
There are some more inaccuracies you didn't mention. Lister in particular would have lost quite a bit of weight walking for 6 months to India, and the Cat would have lost weight too. Jesus was astounded by the bag, but he should also have been astounded by the photographs in the quarters. The so-called history book would not list "wars started by Christianity" but would rather talk about the cultures they displaced and destroyed. Christianity was particularly successful at this, both with conflict and without. And besides, if he's not bothered by the (story of the) Battle of Jericho then he's hardly likely to be bothered by stories of future conquests by Christians.
The ten commandments were not really "made up" either. There are other parts of the Law of Moses that are highly likely to have been deliberately inserted to "keep a primitive people in check", but the ten commandments are an integral part of a mythical story, and not really evidence of deliberate tampering. Especially when you consider they are remarkably similar to commands given by other deities in other religions/cultures. It's more that the story-tellers that allowed the mythology surrounding Moses and his god to grow and expand put their values and beliefs into the story.
The idea of the church of Judas was a bit far-fetched. If they incorporated the Gospel of Judas into their readings then they would come to believe that Judas was asked by Jesus to hand him over to the Romans, but not that he swapped places with him to be crucified. And that was Judas Iscariot, not the brother of Jesus more commonly called "Jude". There's no known ancient text today that would lead a person to believe that the two Judas's are the same person. And besides, I thought Rimmer's parents were Seventh Day Advent Hoppists? But they can have creative licence for that one, you never know what will be discovered in the future.
So Aractus, seems like you were wrong when you said "usually the writers go to great lengths to maintain scientific accuracy". Like your claim that each series flowsfrom one to the other was wrong. You do appear quite obsessed with the religious accuracy, which is obviously not the same as scientific accuracy...if you please...
I liked Lemons a lot. I laughed. It was funny. The end.
Exactly Rebecca, its a 29 minute sit-com, not a historical re-construction.
Yep, this sums it up really. 8)
No I wasn't asking for religious accuracy, rather historical accuracy (and yes I think of history is a science, or at least a discipline that employs the scientific method). There are two ways to calculate the birth-time of Jesus, the way I was using was counting backwards from when Luke says the Baptism by John the Baptist was (fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar), the second way is to count forward from the nativity. But the nativity is unlikely to have any historical validity to it. And anyway Luke might have been mistaken about what year the baptism by John was in - plus he only says Jesus was "about 30" not 30 exactly. In fact when it comes to John the Baptist, either has has to be mistaken or Josephus has to be mistaken that John was killed some years later than Jesus, and I'll bet most Greek scholars will favour Josephus over Luke on that one.
Haven't you already told us this? Anyway it is not relevant, as has been said RD is a sitcom whether it gets so-called historical facts 100% accurate is irrelevant. & the Jesus in Lemons isn't even the 'real' one...
Anyway, you still wrong about series of RD flowing from one to another...
And to get back to the point with Lemons, there are other episodes where non-English languages are spoken. Backwards for example where everyone speaks "Bulgarian" (or rather English in reverse) and the Gelfs.
Apples, pears, plums all have varieties native to the British isles which could have been used. Wild fruits and berries would have been useful too, at least the juices would since you could immerse the two metals in the acidic juices and get much the same effect.
As for peasants reading, my understanding is that certainly at the lower rungs of society (Such as the son of a chicken thief would probably be at) reading was extremely unlikely.
The thing with bags is another issue as well, the use of bags predates recorded history and is one of the oldest human innovations. No-one would be surprised or amazed by them.
Fully armed, in battledress and apparently in hot pursuit of a chicken thief's son?
I don't expect a historical reconstruction, which is why for example the fact that the Roman soldiers are wearing completely the wrong gear doesn't overly concern me. But what bothers me is that there is so much in there that the plot and story hinges on that is just flat out wrong, and because I notice it the suspension of disbelief is broken and broken repeatedly.
My point there was that these are all points the story in Lemons more or less hinges on. The names of the gods, the uniform of the soldiers, etc, less so. That's why they seem much greater issues IMO than them being out a year or so on the date/age.
Some superb points above from Simon and Aractus.
I think he was referring to Jesus and the lemon-seller, who travelled *to* Albion.
I think I can give this one a pass. The scheme comes from Rimmer, and was presumably half-remembered from a science lesson. Kryten should suggest berries, but, conveniently, we know from other eps that he wipes unneeded information from his memory. That means he can be stupid or only have partial knowledge when the plot needs it. It's certainly a pointless quest, but I can accept the rationale as given.
The only bit that really bothers me is the language issue.
I disagree. Language comes naturally to people. We don't think of writing coming naturally, but it does. People can sound out the letters and work out what it says. Not as easy at all with Hebrew, true, but easy enough with Greek for sure.
The idea that people couldn't read came from our primitive understanding that people needed to be taught to read. But that hypothesis itself discredits the very existence of written language in the first place if it needs to be "taught", plus several different written languages developed independently.