Thank God for Only the Good finale...

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by betelgeuse, Aug 21, 2010.

  1. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    Sure, I fully understand all of that. I don't necessarily think Doug did it because he'd given up caring either (I did at the time though and that's what I was talking about). I was just stating reasons why the thoughts you allude to Doug having might have been misplaced because a lot of people didn't get whatever it was he was or wasn't trying to do, in part due to the falling standards of the latter half of the series making it confusing as to what type of show Red Dwarf was becoming.

    Yeah me too. That's one of the reasons why if the proposed new series fell through I'd be sad but not terribly sad, because back to Earth gave the show a finale that, if not exactly the farm on Fiji scenario that Lister dreams about, is at least an upbeat satisfactory ending for the show should we never get another one. I'm also more than aware that Andrew had an influence in the direction of how those final scenes panned out and so, despite us quarralling from time to time, its something I will continue to respect him for. I never thought I'd welcome another scene with Kochanski but Back to Earth absolutely nailed the right way to use the character for me and is one of my faivorate scenes of the entire show.

    Like I say, inferring malice was never my intention. I don't believe I've ever stated that Doug Naylor deliberately creates 'bad' Red Dwarf. However this doesn't mean that the parts of his work that are sloppy or illogical should be immune from criticism. That isn't attacking the man's character, it's critiquing a work put on public display for consumption...most importantly in the genuine hope that the show won't repeat the 'bad' bits.

    As for the Holly Hop drive. It get's called 'Hokey' because it looked naff. That's all. The storyline may simply transplant the "a wizard made it" to "a genius computer made it" but the difference with Only the Good's mirror universe was that thanks to the deletion of a crucial scene, the wizard didn't even get a mention. :-(
     
  2. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    on the commantary the cast were saying pete was originally going to to be 1 episode and not a 2 parter, but with scenes like the dino vomit scene you can see why it weighs down, it seems doug tends to slow down storys by telling long drawn out gags before getting back to the plot, i mean there are gags in BTE that i feel didnt need to be there like the air machine gag which could of been removed and given more time to story, as if you look at series 5 and 6 the gags are ussaully built around the story


    i actally found the lager gag funny, even more then any gag like that from series 8

    red dwarf 8 was basicly a Caricature of its past series, and thats kinda what scares me about dougs writing future series, id rather not have doug playing safe and thinking well fans liked that so ill do something similar and it will be funny
     
  3. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    On the other hand, in a recent thread Andrew has said that one of Doug's characteristics is that "he likes fast paced, exciting storytelling" that "moves like a rocket" and that during Back to Earth he often felt it necessary to slow Doug down and get him to focus more on the logic of the story. Perhaps this explains why elements of series 8 seem rushed (the mirror universe) or illogical (the dinosaur). Perhaps, and I'm only speculating, but perhaps Doug had nobody around him to put the breaks on at that point. That's not a direct criticism as its something any writer can struggle with without someone who can provide that kind of brutally honest feedback. Hence why we have editors.

    As for the BTE bunkroom scene, it's my least faivorate segment of the special. I think the reason it failed is that, much like the bunkroom scenes in series 8, it felt laboured and forced (even if it did have those nice touches in cosmetic design). I've said it before but I think it would be beneficial if cast and crew move away from the "bunkroom scenes are the heartbeat of the show" mentallity often expressed on the DVD's. It was always about the writing, in my view, never about the location. Look at 'Marooned' as a great example of this. No bunkroom in sight but brilliant writing akin to the early series.
     
  4. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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  5. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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  6. Mardroid

    Mardroid Console Officer

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    I'm not sure Marooned is a good example of this. The entire episode is pretty much a bunk-room scene! Sure it's set on Starbug rather than in a bunk room and there is the question of survival and the fact the two are stuck together, but if anything I'd say it took the 'bunk-room scene' and put it on steroids! (And as you say, it was very good.)

    Don't get me wrong. I get your point, and I don't think later series lost much when they stopped/reduced the amount of bunk scenes. I actually quite liked those scenes in series 8 though. I wasn't keen on the ones in BtE. The sneeze gag was more an 'ugh' for me than a chuckle and the scene where they're discussing the squid felt a little off too. Not so much the lines themselves but the pacing dragged. There seemed to be a lot of pauses between lines. At the time I thought maybe the lads were just getting used to working together again, as this isn't really an issue in the rest of the specials, but the scenes were not filmed in order so that doesn't work. The director's cut seemed to improve this though, so I suspect it was an editing issue.
     
  7. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    to be honest i thought the reason they were dropped is because rob and doug were getting more daring story wise and there was no room for them in the story they were telling, and if it was down to chris and craig not getting on they proberly wouldnt of had any scenes together at all
     
  8. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    so your saying they only wrote clever storys like backwards, polymorphy, justice, back to reality, because chris and craig didnt get on? so the writers couldnt have 1 to 1 bunkroom scenes for them?

    that dont really explain the few bunk scenes they did have, like in body swap, timeslides, and the last day, and series 4's dimension jump, justice (rimmers cell if that counts), but its also noticable that series 3 and 4's bunkroom scenes were not just rimmer and lister, there was kryten to lister, lister to rimmer, rimmer to cat ect ect , and then series 5 stripped away most the 1 to 1 bunkroom stuff, and same with series 6 as it began to become more group talk

    and from what i remember of the novels they did less of the rimmer and lister momments as the novels went on, and i dont think last human had any, and i cant remember if backwards had any

    i cant help but think it was just the direction the writers were heading in
     
  9. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    really? when was this mentioned by doug?

    btw i didnt mean "we" i meant they :P, dont ask how i made that mistake im puzzed
     
  10. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    Several of the DVD documentaries.

    Also I think that to imply that series 1 and 2 had no "clever stories" is to neglect some of the clverest stories Red Dwarf has ever told. Future Echoes and Thanks for the Memory are just as "clever" as Polymorph in my book, if not cleverer.
     
  11. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    indeed the storys for series 2 were good but to do them storys they were bunkroom based, how could they of done episodes like back to reality with bunk scenes, it would of slowed down a well driven story, but later episodes took the show away to other locations and im sure that wasnt just because chris and craig not getting on, the show just seemed to be more adventure based later on and even the cast talk about it in either the series 1 or 2 commantary
     
  12. betelgeuse

    betelgeuse Catering Officer

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    I agree, maybe these reasons are why i dislike series VIII so much; because the show seemed to be evolving as it went from series to series, then for series VIII they (arguably) took the red dwarf series back to square-one which I thought was the essential mistake.
    I think Red Dwarf has evolved from situational comedy, to sci-fi comedy...to what we have now with BTE which is a dramtic sci-fi comedy (there are subtle differences lol - not least in the way they are shot).

    see my other thread;
    http://www.reddwarf.co.uk/forum/messages.cfm?messageid=CE3904A9-DD84-C13E-ED1D8DE83B148F44#CE3904A9-DD84-C13E-ED1D8DE83B148F44
     
  13. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    I'm not really sure who's point you are arguing with.

    Nobody said that Chris and Craig not getting on had anything to do with the show becoming more adventure based or filming on exotic locations. We just said that the reason Rob and Doug stopped writing bunkroom scenes between Lister and Rimmer was because they wern't getting on. Two totally different things being discussed as I see it.
     
  14. Mardroid

    Mardroid Console Officer

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    I agree. Even during the time of the bunk scenes it wasn't as if the entire episode was set in a bunk scene. Just as the latter more adventurous episodes often had a sit down/walk talky bit. Not all that different from a bunk scene really except often or not the entire crew was involved. Sooner or later they'd need to go out and be more adventurous which actually started in series 2 anyway.
     
  15. betelgeuse

    betelgeuse Catering Officer

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    I actually can't beleive that Craig and Chris fell out..especially as they're the main series focus point at that stage...they covered it up completely on camera of course, though it must have added to the tension and drama and antagonism between the two characters in those first series...come to think of it Lister did seem more 'shouty' in those first series lol
     
  16. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    I would say that probably had a lot to do with Craig's age and the fact that he really was an angry young poet from Liverpool...as opposed to the refined, cultured, barely scouse sounding ac-tor he is today. :lol:
     

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