The Chief Objections Thread

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by R.I.P. 2000, Apr 27, 2016.

  1. R.I.P. 2000

    R.I.P. 2000 Deck Sergeant

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    One of the more interesting implications of Entangled is the fact that Rimmer seems to have completely transcended his light bee - based on his ability to walk through a locked door in "soft light" mode.

    It puts future episodes at risk of Chief Objections, if Rimmer ever gets locked in a room and doesn't simply walk out of it.
     
  2. R.I.P. 2000

    R.I.P. 2000 Deck Sergeant

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    That's a fair point - perhaps the emergency response team were already at the site of the incident (or en route) and asked Holly to put the call out for Rimmer.
     
  3. djmcbell

    djmcbell Supply Officer

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    With Rimmer's light bee, we have to remember that it *seems* the first Lister knows of it is in Meltdown. Rimmer does move through a table in Stasis Leak, and through the wall in Entangled, yet in Thanks For The Memory needs his projection cage. I don't think we can put it down to "they found a light bee at X time" because then Lister wouldn't act as confused about it, nor would Holly need to explain it.

    Long story short, they messed up on the writing. It's the least of Red Dwarf's plot holes.

    As for why Rimmer was fixing the drive plate, presumably it was either his responsibility (dubious, as he was a chicken soup machine repairman) or he was the only one available at the time (more likely). Or someone delegated down to him. Maybe all that was required was a bit of soldering, and whoever was in charge thought "hey, even Rimmer can't smeg that one up" (jokes on him eh?). Why didn't Holly stop him and suggest someone else? We have to remember that the Holly back then was far, far different than the one we know now. Holly's had time to actually get to know Rimmer, and between the accident and Lister emerging from stasis/Rimmer's activation, lots of time to review his record and decide to resurrect him as a hologram.

    Again, long story short, Holly didn't know better. Or didn't care. It's possible that he wouldn't have been programmed to recognise the possible dangers of Rimmer repairing the drive plate, and between "then" and "now" broke his programming a bit. In the short bit we've seen of the accident, Holly seems pretty uncaring, simply stating that there's an emergency.
     
  4. R.I.P. 2000

    R.I.P. 2000 Deck Sergeant

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    Well, it was certainly the first time Lister had seen it. Perhaps he was marvelling at how small it was, rather than the mere fact of its existence?

    Imagine you knew that your musician friend had bought a portable guitar amp. When you go round for dinner, he shows it to you. It's the size of a matchbox. You say, "*That's* a guitar amp?!" - and he says, "Yeah, it connects wirelessly and the sound comes out." You were dimly aware that he'd got it - just surprised when you actually saw it. So perhaps Lister's response to the light bee is similar.

    Also, I wonder if Rimmer *always* had a light bee - and the upgrade meant that it would work remotely, without the cage?

    In The End, he only puts his arm through the table, and his upper body (not his bottom) pass through the Cat. In Stasis Leak, various parts of him emerge from the furniture. In Meltdown, Holly explains that the light bee "buzzes around inside him and projects his image". So at any given moment, it could conceivably be anywhere inside him (e.g., his right ankle or left shoulder).

    Given the wacky (fantastical) technology on display in other episodes, it may be that the light bee can somehow project light a short distance through or around solid objects (at least, a small amount of solid matter - like a tabletop). If so, we can only deduce that he doesn't have a light bee if his whole body completely passes through an obstruction, like it does in Entangled.

    Off the top of my head, I can't think of any other occasion when Rimmer does the "full Casper". So maybe he always had a light bee but got rid of it in time for Entangled? Then the progression would be:

    Light bee that works on the ship and in a holocage
    "Cage-free" light bee
    "Cage-free" light bee with hard light mode
    No light bee, plus hard and soft light modes

    I guess we might know more about this Objection (and whether to promote it to Chief) as we progress through the episodes.

    However, I'm generally quite indulgent of the hologram changes. Because the technology becomes less limiting - and one of the changes is an explicit plot point - I'm happy to accept the idea of upgrades.
     
  5. FeeBee

    FeeBee Deck Sergeant

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    I've been watching the early episodes and there is one where Lister walks right through Rimmer. There is another episode where Rimmer lands on the table instead of falling through the table, yet in other episodes we've seen him walking through it. I cannot remember the episodes names at the moment, since I have been watching all over the place.
     
  6. R.I.P. 2000

    R.I.P. 2000 Deck Sergeant

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    Ah! Interesting! Thanks for this, FeeBee.

    If the first emboldened bit is right, I think I'll have to go with the personal theory that the light bee came later, and Lister was merely surprised in Meltdown because he hadn't been paying a huge amount of attention (i.e., he might have dimly known that Rimmer had been upgraded, but was still surprised to actually see the light bee).

    I suppose that satisfies Occam's Razor, because it doesn't require magical technology projecting light through solid objects. If the light source is external to Rimmer, it would be like pointing a movie projector at an obstruction, and only getting part of the image in view.

    Also, Hollister says "please, take every care not to walk through [George], not even when you're in a hurry." If George had a light bee buzzing around inside him, there would be practical reasons not to do this - so Hollister wouldn't merely appeal to their manners.

    If Rimmer landed on a table in an episode of series one or two, I'm scratching my head. He can lie on his bunk, so there's clearly some ability for the projector to take furniture into account. But the overall impression is that this is limited to the bunk and walls.

    It's times like this when I have dark thoughts, and wonder if Red Dwarf is perhaps not 100% internally consistent :-(
     
  7. FeeBee

    FeeBee Deck Sergeant

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    I found the episode, it in in Queeg at the start when he is playing checkers with the scutter and Holly cannot remember what the emergency is (4:09 mins into the episode of the original cut. Not sure if that is in the remastered episodes). Knew it was one of the recent ones I watched so made it easier to track down.
     
  8. R.I.P. 2000

    R.I.P. 2000 Deck Sergeant

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    Ha! You're quite right. When the meteor strikes, Rimmer is thrown on the table and lies across it.

    It's surely a full-on error. I don't think there's anything we can do to save it?
     
  9. djmcbell

    djmcbell Supply Officer

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    It occurs to me that there are a few different types of hologram, and a few different ways to project them.

    First off, I think we should all accept that Rimmer has a light bee. This, as another poster mentioned, could be in any part of him at any time. In fact, it could even be OUTSIDE him, projecting his image from a short distance away. This way, we can get around Rimmer's appearance through the table in Stasis Leak - as we never see him "within" the table, simply emerging from it.

    The novels originally had the light bee as tiny, so someone walking through him wouldn't be able to hit it easily (especially since it could have pretty good intelligence to avoid obstacles, like what is evolving at the moment in UAVs). Though the light bee we've seen is still roughly the size of a tennis ball. Ho-hum.

    I'm probably going through these out of order, but if we remember Holoship, we know that holograms have been projected before WITHOUT light bees. The Holoship had no mass, and I imagine not even a single light bee was found. Go figure.

    What if, over time, they managed to switch Rimmer to this new technology? We saw Legion upgrade Rimmer's light bee to "hard light", which I imagine would just be a different wavelength of light. What if we got Rimmer being projected anywhere, without a light bee, in hard light? Using these two technologies in tandem would do it. It'd be a long shot, but hey-ho. That could explain away Entangled.

    Which kind-of leads me onto another thing - how hologram technology has evolved, and how to explain away the Hologram Projection Cage. I imagine Red Dwarf, as a ship, is old. It's got an entire suite dedicated to projecting Rimmer, and he can move about the ship as he likes. This is also going to go into my "how George McIntyre really killed everyone" theory.

    Blue Midget looks to be pretty old and beat up too, and if you notice, we never see Rimmer outside of Blue Midget (and outside another ship) without the Hologram Projection Cage. Basically, when he's in or around another ship, it seems that ship projects him. Blue Midget can manage to project him internally, but not externally. I should imagine that, when Rimmer is aboard the Nova 5, he was being projected BY the Nova 5.

    Of course that theory is pretty much shot to death immediately as, as soon as series 3 comes along, he's able to galavant about as much as he likes. It could be argued that Starbug has much, much better supplies on board (don't forget, in Backwards, Rimmer and Kryten's Starbug was running its own, independent version of Holly, admittedly briefly - the resources for that could go to Rimmer). Starbug always struck me as being more modern than Blue Midget, and possibly Red Dwarf too. Kind of like a modern smartphone vs a Spectrum.

    Of course, we know that some resources have to go to running a hologram and it may not just be power in a literal sense, but also the computing power required. The actual projection may not be very power-intensive, but the actual "creating the person". As such, as technology improved and different craft were used, Rimmer's projection got easier (though still unable to support two holograms at the same time without sacrificing various systems - we could say that Howard was generated by the Trojan).

    What am I talking about? The accident in the first place. Was Holly compromised by having to perform his usual tasks, on a populated ship, AND generate George McIntyre?

    Random stuff for people to use if they want to create theories or any other nonsense. It's too early in the morning for me.
     
  10. R.I.P. 2000

    R.I.P. 2000 Deck Sergeant

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    Good thinking!

    The first holoships were contemporaries of Kryten, or possibly came just after - depending on whether the "initial phase" covers planning or the first actual missions:

    Further supporting your theory - when Binks "beams aboard" Starbug, he seems to arrive in pure energy form, rather than being teleported as a light bee:

    The inventor of the hard-light drive was from the 23rd Century, and we can imagine (without knowing for sure) that the invention hails from the same time:

    So it's quite likely that a) the hard-light drive is "old tech" compared to the holoship and b) Rimmer caught up some time before Entangled.

    Good work!

    I'm coming round to the conclusion that Rimmer always had a light bee, which can't be seen when it's actually in operation.

    We learn from Backwards that "cloaking" was available in Lister's time. If a whole shuttle craft can be cloaked, then hiding a light bee would be trivial. And we only see the light bee on rare occasions, when Rimmer is "off".

    I like the idea that it's normally "inside" him, because, for purely practical reasons, it makes sense for it to be there. But there's no reason why it couldn't jump out of the way to avoid a collision, or hover over a table, unseen, to project him coming out of it. The only limitation is that it can't pass through a wall or other complete obstruction.

    Since we don't see Rimmer interacting with any furniture in The End, perhaps he just learned to hover over it - in an appropriate position - so he didn't have to stand around awkwardly? Hence him lying on his bunk and across the table, and, eventually, being able to sit in Starbug.

    After falling through the table in episode one, he might have asked Holly to take furniture into account when simulating him. For all we know, there were lengthy off-screen conversations about making Rimmer's holographic life as "normal" as possible. Again, the trend here is for holographic technology to become less and less "inconvenient", which could be the result of upgrades and tinkering.

    And, of course, we know from Entangled that he eventually caught up with the crew of the holoship, and was able to go light-bee-free at least some of the time.
     
  11. R.I.P. 2000

    R.I.P. 2000 Deck Sergeant

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    Next up: Future Echoes. I'm scraping the barrel a bit here. Overall, I found the story light on objectionable material.

    Chief objection

    When Rimmer is taunting Lister, he marches up and down, pretending to carry a coffin and humming the Funeral March. However, as he runs out of the room, he briefly does the "dobba-dobba dom-dom" bit from Jona Lewie's Christmas song. This is inexplicable, and thematically inappropriate.

    Assorted minor objections

    Lister has to quote his personnel number to the vending machine, but Rimmer didn't have to when testing it in The End.

    Rimmer must be the first person in the history of mankind to get a crew cut and then not instinctively rub his head.

    Why do Lister and Cat pack to go into stasis? What does Lister mean when he says, "You can't take all of this - there's no room?" Perhaps they plan to take the items into the stasis pods - but, in that case, how did they survive the first three million years? Arguably, they're made of more durable materials in Lister's time - although there would presumably be an impact on the environment if cloth and paper didn't decompose in landfill. In any case, that still leaves the question of how they survived when Lister was in stasis the first time.

    When Lister tells the skutters that he can't stay with them, one of them bangs its head against the wall, but the other just swings its head and repeatedly misses.

    Holly explains that "we're faster than [light speed] right? Consequently, you're catching up with things you're about to do before you've done them." There's nothing in science to account for this. Moreover, for the purposes of General Relativity, there are four dimensions (three of space and one of time). Even if the crew can see into the future, why would they see other locations? For instance - even if the elderly Lister returned to the bunk as planned, the bunk (and Red Dwarf itself) would be somewhere completely different by then.

    There's not really anything to be done with this last "objection". As with Timeslides, the Future Echoes are basically a "space fantasy" plot device.

    Mistakes about the future

    While Moss Bros and the speaking clock are extant at the time of writing, Mr. Teasy-Weasy is barely heard of nowadays, and I can't imagine a resurgence of interest in Lister's time.

    Interesting non-objections

    Lister says it will take four thousand years just to turn around at close to light speed. This suggests a turning arc of thousands of light years, which makes the arrival of the mail pod in BTL even more extraordinary.

    EDIT to fix broken italics.
     
  12. djmcbell

    djmcbell Supply Officer

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    Rimmer was being a prat and didn't really know what he was humming.

    Vending machine could have been in debug mode.

    He went into the bathroom and rubbed it for a good 15 minutes earlier.

    Presumably, as you say, stuff decomposes over time. Cat wants to save his clothes. But, as you say, what about the other stuff from before the accident? Well, the only thing I can think of is that it too decomposed and Holly simply had the skutters raid what was sealed away in storage just before Lister came out of stasis. Cat perhaps doesn't want to put his suits into storage. Or bad writing.

    The one that misses secretly loves Lister, and has decided to drown its sorrows beforehand. Quite frankly, it's off its trolley.

    This is all explained away in the real ending to series 8.

    Just because you can't imagine it, doesn't mean it couldn't happen.

    An odd one, trying to get a rough idea of exactly *where* Red Dwarf would be. Presumably it's been going in a straight line, away from the solar system, for nigh-on 3 million years. I would imagine this could be a protocol of Holly's, which would state than in a radioactive incident the ship would have to fly away so as to not risk contamination. Holly, quite possibly, could have resurrected Hollister as a hologram to countermand this order, but perhaps it needs to come from a living crew member. And, with Lister the only living crew member and out of action for 3 million years...

    But, after that, Red Dwarf can't just turn around - it has to take time. It would probably take it a few weeks to do a full 180-turn at normal speeds, or even if it came to a stop and turned on the spot, then started off again. Either way, this does make me think that Holly was being a bit daft by deciding to turn around at light speed, and the distance covered just by Red Dwarf turning at those speeds, for that amount of time, would be huge. Chances are that the ship wouldn't even be a single light year away (realistically speaking), and Holly wants to do that which would push them even further away?

    And already they are further away - Red Dwarf was in light speed for just a few hours (and near light speed too), but that will have probably added at least a few centuries to the return journey (if they were to simply turn around).

    Figures are mostly from my imagination, by the way.
     
  13. simulant37

    simulant37 Science Officer

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    It is NOT Jona Lewie's song. The Funeral March is a slow sombre piece of music to which people walk in a slow pace in time with the music. Lister runs out of the room, Rimmer follows at a similar speed & he continues the gag about carrying a coffin but increases the speed of his recitation of the Funeral March to match his increased foot pace.
     
  14. R.I.P. 2000

    R.I.P. 2000 Deck Sergeant

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    But then he would have known that Holly had pranked him, by giving him a beehive?

    You're quite right. I did say I was scraping the barrel! We can only assume that posterity is kind to Mr Teasy-Weasy.

    My theory on this is that Holly had to make for interstellar space to save the ship from collisions. In a region as busy (relatively speaking) as the Solar System, a major impact would be very likely in a time frame of three million years.

    I think the ship would have taken the radiation with it, and the strategy for dealing with that seems to be a waiting game (hence three million years!).

    I'm sure he's meant to be doing this - but, in the excitement of the brief gallop, he instinctively reaches for a few bars of Jona Lewie.

    If you listen to it, it's not actually a high-tempo version of the Funeral March.
     
  15. simulant37

    simulant37 Science Officer

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    It's not Jona Lewie. As I have explained. End of.
     
  16. R.I.P. 2000

    R.I.P. 2000 Deck Sergeant

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    Has anyone got Shazam?
     
  17. Simonr1978

    Simonr1978 Deck Sergeant

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    The best I can come up with is that the Cadmium II which flooded the crew decks it effectively sterilised them wiping out all the fungal spores and bacteria that would cause things to rot so there was no decompostion, Holly may have even vented the contaminated air into space leaving the ship's interior in a vaccuum for a period of time, although if this were the case the crew's bodies would have remained more or less intact and they'd not end up as piles of albino mouse droppings. Also, wouldn't plastics and rubbers still perish even in a vaccum (Genuinely asking because I honestly don't know)? Maybe they've got nanobots in the clothing to make ongoing repairs... ;-)

    That's made me think about all the miles of electrical wiring in Red Dwarf itself which would be horrendously degraded and would be short circuiting left, right and center, at this stage though I'm willing to accept that I'm massively over-thinking things.

    One minor niggle for me that I think I've mentioned previously elsewhere. We know by this episode that Holly has not only been piloting Red Dwarf single handed for 3 million years, but during that time it's been continually accelerating to light speed. So what do Navigation Officers (Kochanski's rank although to be fair I'm not sure if she's been referred to as that until Chloe Annette takes over) actually do since they don't seem to need to do any actual navigating?

    To work out roughly where Red Dwarf is, assuming that at the time of the accident Red Dwarf was as near stationery as makes no odds (Relative to Light Speed that is) she'd be around 1.5 Million Light Years from the solar system at this point, assuming a straightforward linear acceleration and that she travelled in a more or less straight route with little or no deviation. That's going to be about as good as you can get, the problem is that the solar system isn't going to be just sitting still either so the distance could be a bit less if Red Dwarf is travelling in the same direction or a bit more if Red Dwarf is travelling in the opposite direction, or somewhere inbetween, but making all those assumptions and assuming that Holly kept Lister in stasis for exactly 3 million years Red Dwarf would have an average velocity for the duration of the flight of half light speed.

    Going by the figures Lister gives in this episode, by RDX Red Dwarf should still be in the outwards portion of its turn, still heading away from Earth. The assumption I make is that somewhere off screen inbetween episodes Holly manages to pull off something clever by flying the ship just close enough to a large star that the gravity is sufficient to swing Red Dwarf round in a single orbit. I don't know if this would even be possible, but this is Red Dwarf afterall not hard sci-fi and that satisfies me as an explanation to skip the depressing reality that Lister would be long dead before Red Dwarf even began to close any kind of distance with Earth.

    Another distinct possibility is that Lister hadn't a clue what he was talking about and picked the numbers more or less out of the air and Rimmer lacked either the confidence or knowledge or both to challenge him on them. The reality though would be that either way still by RDX Red Dwarf would have closed hardly any of the 1.5 million light year gap with Earth.

    As for the post pod, it's not that remarkable IMO. As Red Dwarf was decelerating and turning at that stage and assuming that the post pod had been accelerating at the same time that it was tracking Red Dwarf it makes sense that it would finally be able to intercept Red Dwarf.

    Still, it doesn't really make that much sense for Holly to keep Red Dwarf accelerating for 3 million years when he could have taken Red Dwarf say 1,000 years out, parked in orbit somewhere off the main spacefaring routes and stuck a repeating warning beacon on that the ship was highly radioactive and not to be touched. It'd still take several lifetimes to get back of course, but it's still a lot less than a 6 million year round trip.
     
  18. R.I.P. 2000

    R.I.P. 2000 Deck Sergeant

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    These are all superb suggestions - but then we circle back to the question of why they were packing for stasis? EDIT: Although I suppose that wouldn't apply to the Cadmium II suggestion.

    I feel like we have two oddities here (i.e., the durability of items on the ship and the need to pack for stasis) and can plausibly fix either, but possibly not both :?
     
  19. Simonr1978

    Simonr1978 Deck Sergeant

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    Maybe Lister just intended to take stuff that he couldn't bear to risk being left in the ship where there was a possibility it might have been damaged or decayed, not that it was necessarily unsafe on the ship itself but he assumed it would be safer with him in the stasis booth. He didn't have the option of doing so the last time because it wasn't supposed to be that long and in any case it was a punishment.
     
  20. FeeBee

    FeeBee Deck Sergeant

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    That is what I always throught was the reason for him packing a few things for stasis when he chooses to go back in.
     

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