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Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by Alana_Ryan_Behan, Feb 15, 2014.
Looking down on Rimmer isn't exactly an irregular position for any member of the crew though ...
Though given Lister's mate's description of his usual type, albeit whilst taking the mick, and Rimmer's description too, it doesn't sound like it would take a great deal for a woman to be considered too classy for pre-accident Lister.
I agree though and that was more or less the point I was trying to make, we really do know next to nothing about Grogan-Kochanski, certainly not enough to make any kind of guesses about her upbringing or even really her personality.
To Sum it up:
CP Grogans Kochanski was more of a Ladette- she felt a bit tougher, more flirty but she a likeable quality about her almost a girl next door type of quality- she and Craig Charles had more chemenstry though (hell on Series 7 documentary Craig was the one who said that he missed Claire as Kochanski)
Chloe Annette's Kochanski didnt work because
A) she just didnt seem that likable, her introduction was like Princess Leia's intro to Han and Chewbacca she acted like a snob
B) she brought out the worse in Kryten but that was to replace the Rimmer/Lister Dynamnic which felt wrong
C) she had some poorly written lines
D) The Previous series was Series 6 and Claire appeared in the first episode and then chronologically speaking it felt a bit disjarring seeing Chloe's kochanski
What else didnt work was the complete retcon of her character in terms of physically (going from Brunette to Blonde) and characterilistics- she felt like a completely new character in Series 8- true she was a bit more likable but still
im just more of a Grogan fan sorry
I think the contrast in type between Grogan and Annett made his quest for her all that bit more difficult and unlikely to succeed. Whereas, no offence to Clare, she looked easy enough for even Lister. Kochanski should be well out of Dave's league and Grogan just doesn't sell that.
I really think you should have quit when you were behind...
'Easy enough for even Lister'. What on earth are you thinking???
And 'Kochanski should be well out of Dave's league'? Firstly, that wouldn't work from the story point of view at all (as the best sections of Back to Earth showed). Ans secondly, you yourself have tried to argue the exact opposite in this thread.
Now you really are attempting a wind-up.
Lister: This is a wind-up
Rimmer: Don't get emotional; not in your condition!
I know this is an old thread, but i really hate this kind of attitude about Kochanski. I'm asexual, i couldn't care less whether Chloe Annett is attractive or not or "out of my league". She and all women have no effect on me at all. I'm also middle class and have a degree, so i don't care that she is well educated. I find the Kochanski character almost unbearable. The first one, you could at least see why Lister was attracted to her. The Chloe one, she has nothing at all in common with Lister. She's wetter than a wet thing that's been submerged in water until it's really wet. Lister always comes across as liking edgy women. Why would he be obsessed with someone that he is completely incompatible with? Can anybody see Lister spending his weekends shopping for curtains in House of Fraser and going to the opera?? She's exactly the type of person Lister despises. It just didn't work, the character was annoying as hell.
The weird thing about Annett's Kochanski is she is literally EVERYTHING that Lister hates. Listen to his rant in Stasis Leak (great RD moment) and he's pretty much describing Annett's character.
That's a very good point, though he is talking about a stereotypical middle class guy there (he may not have considered these things as applying to Kochanski as well, being in love skewing your judgement and all that).
It does put me in mind of that bit in DNA where Lister talks about being a class traitor by going into a wine bar - I imagine Kochanski mk.II would be much happier in that environment than in some backstreet Scouse drinking pit (although to be fair, wouldn't Kochanski mk.I really have preferred this too? I suppose we don't have enough evidence to go on). The alternate version of Lister from Ouroboros doesn't exactly seem a barrel of laughs either, so perhaps they're well suited in that dimension.
Guess Lister is really pining after his own version of Kochanski, and this new version is only the best that's available (well, not exactly available then).
I actually enjoyed the different dynamic of series 7 and Kryten's jealousy though there were moments of terrible writing. Kochanski veered all over the place in terms of characterisation.
Although I was still not too much of a massive fan of her character I preferred the series 8 Kochanski. She came across to me as a bit less snooty, snobbish and prissy and so I warmed to her a bit as this in series 8's excellent half made her more comical rather than jarring the humour of RD like she did in series 7.
Still when you think of it there were some good moments for her in the 1997 run despite the snootiness and Kryten's jealousy being a bit cringeworthy occasionally - her response to the games night in Blue, her sarcastic comment about the greater intelligence of the wall and her saving of Lister in Epideme was heroically impressive.
But yes because her superiority complex to the rest of the Dwarfers in series 8 is toned down I warmed to her character slightly more in the 1999 run.
Happy New Red Dwarf Eve btw again!
It's funny that so many fans (myself included) have formed such a concrete detail of CP Grogan's Kochanski despite only ever having heard a couple of authentic lines from her (which could easily be read as patronising Lister in a sarcastic or condescending fashion, yet we, like him, choose to interpret them as flirting).
In many ways we've come to idealise her in the same way that Lister does (and that people often do with unrequited crushes) and the clashing disappointment of the "real" Kochanski not living up to that fairytale (as so many unrequited crushes do when they are realised)grates all the more because of it.
I disliked Kochanski in series VII (she was,surprisingly, more bearable in VII despite the awfulness of that series) but none of that had anything to do with Chloe Annett and everything to do with Doug's traditionally poor quality writing of female characters.
I loved her appearance in BTE though, which proved that there is nothing wrong with the actress if she is used properly. For me, Chloe Annett is Kochanski now, in any dimension.
I've often felt that Chloe Annett's Kochanski has been unfairly judged in Series VII. Sure, she can be a bit of a moanie Minnie, but considering the circumstances in which she finds herself, you can hardly blame her. She is a posh girl, certainly, but I don't find her particularly snobbish. Her main reaction to the other crew is due to what she has lost and the circumstances in which she finds herself. Yet she proves herself capable and helpful.
I think the main reason people dislike her is due to the fact that the beloved Rimmer ( who incidentally is more snobbish and arrogant than Kochanski ever was, although she beats him in poshness) had left, and this posh lass was the replacement. And how very dare she undermine our boys, even if it is understandable and even warranted at times!
I think the thing is for me then is while Rimmer is arrogant and snobbish as well, unlike Kochanski it comes across as much more comical because he is an inept, lowly technician and though some fans were not keen, series 10's The Beginning showed that as he was the gardener's son his background was as "working class" as Lister! Because Rimmer's arrogance and snobbishness contrasts with his low capability and his background is really not that posh I find it funny. Of course Rimmer's solutions to the series 6 cliffhanger (he almost destroyed the time drive in time), series 8 one and series 10 one are exceptions to his lack of intellectual ability but I suppose it's like a poor football team can have an excellent result once in a while and even then the series 8 one was a "total fluke."
On the other hand because Kochanski looks down very much on the other Dwarfers I just find it to lack comic value and look really snooty as she genuinely is and always has been an extremely clever and capable navigation officer and truly very posh too.
I don't know but that is IMHO why I didn't enjoy Kochanski's character too much in Red Dwarf 7. Though I must admit I haven't watched any Red Dwarf since last December and that was only the Xtended 7 and 8 episodes (haven't watched the main run since I finished with The Beginning this time last year) so maybe I am not able to remember as well as I would like. I just find I prefer to watch the earlier series every 3 years as I like to be refreshed in terms of my enjoyment of it.
But yes certainly no new character was ever going to adequately replace Rimmer and yes it is a trial and tribulation for Kochanski to have lost her hologramatic boyfriend Lister and superior ship from the other dimension. But I personally prefer the way she was characterised to be somewhat more likeable in the 1999 run.
It's all different opinions obviously so fair enough.
Like I was saying I have not watched any RD since last December so only 2 days to go now! (I want to watch the new series 11 episodes on the big TV screen so that is why I still have not watched Twentica so far and I am massively looking forward to Thursday, the real New Red Dwarf day for me!).