There should not be any more Red Dwarf.

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by Murray, Nov 15, 2009.

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  1. Cruel Slayer

    Cruel Slayer Console Officer

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    Didn't the movie we all grew up calling Star Wars always begin with the words 'STAR WARS episode IV A New Hope'?:?
     
  2. Daniel

    Daniel Console Officer

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    Nope. It began with the words "A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away..." ;-) But yeah, then came the whole Episode IV A New Hope part.

    Sorry, couldn't resist :eek:ops:
     
  3. ori-STUDFARM

    ori-STUDFARM Supply Officer

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    I thought George Lucas had planned a massive story arc that did included the basic prequel storylines. But, realising it was far too big a tale to tell, opted for the Star Wars segment (or Ep IV: New Hope if you insist)as a stand alone movie with the option, if successful, to do sequels and prequels which could (or maybe will one day) mean 9 movies in total?

    I've heard so much on the subject, I can never remember for sure what the most probable story was....
     
  4. KingR76

    KingR76 Deck Sergeant

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    You remind me of a lot of people I know who feel that God screwed up his Galaxy but I'm not going to get into that debate here, theres already far too much smoke in this thread, ha!

    I only become enthusiastic when something touches my Heart or takes me back to another time etc, back in 1992 I went to see Batman Returns at the cinema and at the time I didn't really notice Girls that much didnt have what you would call "An idol/A Goddess." true Leia in that gold bikini was hawt in Jedi, but when I saw Batman Returns the one thing that stood out the most was Michelle Pfeiffer in THAT Catsuit and thus a crush/almost obsession with Catwoman was born, at college everyone knew whom I fancied and became totally in awe of Pfeiffer - in fact, and I say this hand on my Heart that the day I meet Michelle, will be the day I give up meeting Famous people.

    Last year I started doing conventions (incidentally this is where I met Chris Barrie, it was at the photoshoot and he warmly greeted me with a "Hello, how are you" and a handshake.) and I became aware of those whom dressed up as different characters, it was at one such convention back in November 27th that all my adoloscent/adult Fantasies came true, my eyes fell out of my head as there just as my Friend and I were leaving I saw this Girl dressed up in a screen accurate Batman Returns Michelle Pfeiffer Catsuit, I wont go into full detail here but EVERY single detail was perfect, the white stitching, the makeup, even her claws I naturally thanked her profusely and thats become one of the favourite moments of my life and in the grand scheme of things and out of the six most favourite famous Women I've met she's at number 2.

    1. Andrea Corr - A HUGE Fan of the Corrs, she was so lovely when I met her this year.
    2. Catwoman - see previous paragraph.
    3. Norah Jones - First ever time I saw her on MTV I was touched by her Music and met her last year after her concert, very down to earth.
    4. Angelina Jolie - yep, I could be on this one for a while lol.
    5. Lisa Snowdon - Gorgeous personality and a lovely lady.
    6. Frances Ruffelle - Musical talent.

    When I become empassioned I go all the way theres no medium there, take Red Dwarf for example, on the 7th up at Shepperton I know I'm going to be hardpressed to decide where to look whether at the Camera operators, Booms, Director, Floor manager, and everyone else on the Studio Floor with their attention on the matter in hand, or at Craig, Chris, Bobby and Danny and seeing their performances OR once in a while looking at the monitor.

    As I've mentioned elsewhere the production side thrills me Greatly, years back I went to L.A. and we went on different closed sets at Warner Bros, Friends, Gilmore Girls, E.R. On the Gilmore Girls set I just kept looking at the different props, looking at the overhead lighting rig, and asking questions about Matte Paintings, when Eastenders were shooting down here I became annoyed at the other people who were looking on at the scenes being shot and them yelling into their mobile phones.

    "ERE! GUESS WHAT RIGHT! GUESS WHAT! GUESS WHAT RIGHT, GUESS WHAT! GUESS WHOS IN FRONT OF ME RIGHT NAH! DOT COTTON!"

    I was more interested in the way the Camera was being moved along the dolly tracks and the Camera Operator and his assistant keeping it as steady as possible. Found it rather funny when people started complaining about how long a less than two minutes of dialogue on screen took about an hour to set up, with Cameras being blocked off, Actors going through rehearsals and checking with the Director, and 1st, 2nd and 3rd Assistant Directors different elements of the scene they were shooting.

    Became very acquainted with the Director and (during his busy schedule) we chatted about the Albert Square backlot at Elstree.

    In real life I am exactly the same :-)
     
  5. Cruel Slayer

    Cruel Slayer Console Officer

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    Pedant!:roll: Guess I should have seen that coming.:-) We used to discuss as kids what it meant that it was episode IV, and whether the other episodes were available as novels or something. I have to say, the resolution of that childhood mystery was not a pleasant experience for me.:?
     
  6. Cruel Slayer

    Cruel Slayer Console Officer

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    Good for you!:-) Also, it's nice to know for you it's all about the chicks, and I'm not the only pervert.
     
  7. Daniel

    Daniel Console Officer

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    In my defence, I felt I had been too serious in this thread so needed to lighten my mood a bit. That, and you really did walk into it :P
     
  8. Cruel Slayer

    Cruel Slayer Console Officer

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    Yep!:eek:ops:
     
  9. ori-STUDFARM

    ori-STUDFARM Supply Officer

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    Are you aware that the "Episode IV: A New Hope" was added when Star Wars was re-released onto the cinema screens before Empire Strikes Back came out? The original 1977 release only had "Star Wars" at the beginning.
     
  10. Murray

    Murray Second Technician

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    People who like things don't turn them off. Losing half your audience from the first to the second episode isn't just bad ... it's frickin' disastrous, trust me.

    But I don't have a problem with what you say ... I do have a problem with the methods you're using, while simultaneously accusing me of having no logical reasoning. Your first angle was "your point is invalid because of the DVD/Blu-ray sales (figures of which I haven't seen but regardless I'm sure they support my argument)". That combined with the unwillingness to recognise that half of an audience tuning out might indicate a flop suggest that your logical reasoning is being biased by a preconception of how well Back To Earth did, that doesn't seem to be founded in reality.

    For what it was, it flopped. Both critically and with the viewers. Sorry that you want to argue that fact, but it's not debatable. It did. If you enjoyed Back To Earth, that's fine. Some people did. The majority did not. Unlike classic Red Dwarf.

    Indeed. But you expect Dave to behave that way; they want viewers. We would see "New Fawlty Towers" if they thought they could get good ratings from it. You don't expect John Cleese to be on board with bastardising his beloved show. You have to wonder why Naylor is with his, and whether it's got something to do with the fact his career isn't going very well otherwise.

    Now you're just purposefully trying to be silly. It's not about enjoying the episodes; it's the legacy and reputation of the show that's under threat, something totally separate to enjoyment of individual episodes. Are you telling me that talking to people about Red Dwarf will not give you a sinking feeling in your heart the 20th time you hear the words "It's a shame the direction it took, isn't it"? Instead of "Red Dwarf: Cult Classic", it'll be "Red Dwarf: Failed Revival" that's in people's heads. This is about people caring about the legacy and integrity of a classic show.

    If you can't appreciate that (which it seems like you can't), then please don't weigh in on something you don't seem to understand. Thank you.
     
  11. Daniel

    Daniel Console Officer

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    Yes, I'll concede losing half is not a good thing, but as I stated there are more factors than just "half didn't watch the rest so clearly they all hated it". That is a foolish and narrow-minded view. But then again, that's the norm coming from you at the moment.

    The figures are out there, go look them up. I'm sure they've passed through the site or forum at some point and thus that fact can be clarified. But as you can see, I stated that point on a conditional, not a concrete. The first point was actually "your point is invalid based on the record-breaking viewing figures". Which is a perfectly valid, legitimate point that you are disregarding because they go against your, for want of a better word, argument. My reasoning is founded in reality and perfectly quantifiable. So go ahead, bring me some concrete figures that prove that the majority of people who have seen Back to Earth hated it. Not that they just didn't watch the second episode, which is an assumption they hated it on your part, but actual proof of it. And I'll concede the point to you.

    For what it was, the show was not a flop. If it was then nobody with a hint of sense would commission a new series because that too would inevitably flop and they would lose out heavily, which for a commercial channel is a serious loss of revenue. How's that for a logical argument? Now go and bring me proof that "the majority did not" enjoy Back to Earth. Because half isn't a majority either, even if we assume every lost viewing figure between episodes one and two was caused solely by hatred of what they watched.

    Wait, wait... did you fail to pick up on the sarcasm? You can't be that stupid, surely?

    As for John Cleese, if he wanted it back as well and felt he could make something of it, then I don't see why he wouldn't want to try. Doug Naylor feels new things can be brought to the show, thus he is trying it. You don't like that, tough. I don't like that, tough. It's his show, his decision, his ambition, and at the end of all things the opinions of two people on the internet don't count for smeg all.

    No, I'm not being silly, I'm merely trying to understand what you are saying. You feel the legacy of the show is under threat because you won't enjoy what comes next. Which is not the legacy of the show, it's your view of the show. It's legacy is on the grander scale than that, and even if it's utter crap as I've already said people will still view and enjoy the earlier stuff. Take Blackadder for instance. The first series of that is pretty weak. But when I say "Blackadder" do you automatically jump to its weaker moments and think of the first series or the millenium revival? Or do you think of the great moments in series two, three and four? I certainly know what springs to mind there. Even under the worst case scenario, when a person who has seen Red Dwarf at its best will think of the show they'll think of that first, because most people like to think of the good things rather than things that fell. So Red Dwarf will still stand as a cult classic, not a failed revival. And those who do think the latter, people like you for instance, will never give me a sinking feeling in my heart. You'll simply make me think "why can't they see back to the good days and enjoy the show for the enjoyment it gave them, rather than wallow in their own despair of it?" What this all comes down to in this argument is one man's petty belief that his opinion is bigger than it is, and his adamant disblief that people can dare disagree with him.

    You are correct that I cannot appreciate the crap you are spewing, because a lot of it is nonsense and irrationality. Although I suggest you take your own advice and not weigh in something you fail to understand. In this case, your total lack of understanding of what constitutes a success and a flop, what real people will hold dear about Red Dwarf, or the fact that simply because someone doesn't agree with you it doesn't mean they are wrong and don't understand. Perhaps once you understand these things, you'll be able to string together a valid thought and actually make a meaningful contribution to this thread again, but until then you'll find you are just digging an ever deeper hole for yourself, and with no end in sight.
     
  12. Daniel

    Daniel Console Officer

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    I would actually like to make an addition to this, which had eluded me when I typed it. Have you ever watched a show and decided it just wasn't for you? Didn't necessarily dislike it, just didn't get into it enough to keep going? Felt it just wasn't your sort of thing? Ever turned that show over? Ever not watched the next episode? When it comes to the first episode of something new (and let's face it after 21 years off the screens it was new to a lot of people) a lot of people will watch it just to see what it's like. And walk away without hating it, but just not having got into it. Considering the rather slow nature of part one of Back to Earth, it's a significant concept here. One example of why the drop of viewing figures does not count for a concept that half the people who saw part one hated it. Opening episodes tend to have more outliers to their figures. Check out a series of something on YouTube or something, and you'll often find the first episode has the greatest viewing figures of them all, as people try to work out if the show is really for them.
     
  13. Freeborn

    Freeborn Flight Co-Ordinator

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    Well, this thread has gotten a little heated hasn't it?. Maybe we should all just relax and concenrate on our breathing for a while. As we awaken our inner peace to higher states of consciousness. Here's a little meditation vid that may help.
    Click to Awaken your minds


    ..Ah, now isn't that better?. Now, as you were, back to the arguments :P
     
  14. Murray

    Murray Second Technician

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    As I said, it is disastrous. Half of an audience being lost from the first to the second episode is far outside the normal drop which is experienced between those two. Trust me, I work in the media, and any major TV executive seeing that would throw a fit. Rightly. If you don't believe that, I don't know what to tell you ... it's simply true.

    Well ... go on then?

    I googled it the first time round, couldn't find anything. But you're the one trying to claim that Back To Earth wasn't a flop on the basis of DVD/Blu-ray sales, so it seems you should be the one providing those figures.

    ... your point was "Look at the record-breaking figures. The fact that they are record-breaking proves Back To Earth was successful". And I already said ... it's like claiming that I'm a record-breaker, because I hold the Tallest Person Currently Living On My Street Award 2011. It doesn't mean anything when regarding the show as a success or not. You can say it was a success for Dave, sure. You're talking about a station for which 300,000 viewers is a success. That doesn't mean it was a success for Red Dwarf. Definitely not.

    I didn't. You, however, seem to have failed to pick up on me turning your childish sarcasm back on you. ;-)

    ... you just advocated Dave making new episodes of Fawlty Towers?

    So ... does anybody else want to say that there should be new episodes of Red Dwarf, given that we've now had the view that "well, if they're making new episodes of Red Dwarf, it's reasonable for them to make new episodes of Fawlty Towers too"? Best possible way of this argument being put across, thank you Daniel.

    You believe that Back To Earth wasn't a flop. You believe that it wouldn't be a bad thing for new episodes of Fawlty Towers to be made. You have no understanding of this topic whatsoever, that you would euthanise the greatest comedic institutions of our country in such a manner. That you have no understanding of comedic legacy saddens me greatly, and people like you will be what kills Red Dwarf for good ... and the saddest part of all is that you and people like you will be believing and saying until the very end that new episodes were a good thing.
     
  15. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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    I really must state that BTE was not a flop, you can say it was a disapointment to alot of fans but it wasnt a flop, it gained more viewers then most sky channels, and bbc2 and channel 4 even if it did lose viewers after the first show

    Your tryin to call it a failed come back but it got the viewers so its not a flop
     
  16. Andrew

    Andrew Executive Officer

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    Two years ago, Murray stated that the 'majority' - and their opinion - would be what decided if there would be any more Red Dwarf.

    The implication of that post being that the show was disliked by most, proven by the ratings, and since that dislike was both the majority opinion and made proven fact by numbers, the future of the show would be cancellation. Any further productions would be unthinkable given those numbers.

    We go in front of the audience in a week. With a damn good script. I guess the majority have spoken.

    As a side-note, it's worth pointing out that a) the publicity of BTE confused some viewers, with many thinking that the episodes would be shown weekly, not over one weekend; and b) that the three-ep repeat run shown on that 2009 bank holiday Monday saw the numbers go significantly up with each episode.

    If we use the drop to 'prove' failure and rejection, that climb apparently proves success and acceptance.

    Or we accept a more balanced and reasonable in-between position, where people who missed the show one night came back later to catch up. Where a first-night publicity blitz can inflate ratings artificially - create a circus - but not sustain them easily. Where aggregate numbers matter hugely (the show didn't didn't lose half its viewers between episodes, as per the overnight-based fraction that gets thrown around). Where it's maybe a little bit less black and white than either side will allow.

    Thus we return to an argument that raged two years ago, and can be enjoyed in all its back-and-forth glory in the thread linked above (and also this one). Here are the aggregated numbers from that first weekend. By all means, both sides can feel free to use them to prove their take is the correct one.

    Or, y'know, it could just be left at the impasse it reached then, since we've apparently reached the point where anonymous-but-promise-I'm-more-qualified-than-you posters, and indeed regulars, begin the insults and name-calling.

    In my experience, rarely is much accomplished after that point.

    And with that, for good now, I shall leave the forum.
     
  17. Daniel

    Daniel Console Officer

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    So that's why they are making more, because the major TV executive threw such a fit about the catastrophe? Once again, your argument holds no water. We'll disregard stability between episodes two and three, or the further reference cited by Andrew with regard to the later airing and improving figures.

    This really is farcical. You cannot directly compare the show's viewing figures on terrestrial with its figures on a digital channel because of the very nature of the channels on which they aired. Continuing to try is a waste of time. Yet, I'm sure you'll keep trying.

    Try reading the post. I said if John Cleese wanted to do more Fawlty Towers, thought he could bring something new and worthwhile to it, then why shouldn't he. Where did I say "if they can make Red Dwarf they can make Fawlty Towers" or "the channel with the silly name should go out and make more Fawlty Towers"? Once again, you've wasted time and proven nothing.

    This is so utterly moronic, it doesn't even justify a response.


    Andrew, I guess I had clearly forgotten your ancient ruling on "a topic has been discussed before so THOU SHALT NOT SPEAK OF IT AGAIN".
     
  18. supercat

    supercat Console Officer

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    Hows about this..? They're making more. No one here has a say in the matter. If you want to watch it, watch it. If you don't want to watch it, then don't watch it.

    *joins the Vamp in meditation and soon feels like a wally*
     
  19. Sammy Psycho

    Sammy Psycho Deck Sergeant

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    Well said, I personally am very excited about more Dwarf at the moment.

    Also viewing fiqures are only a guide as you can't rely on thaem as an exact count or statement of how good a show is. For example when back to earth viewed, instead of watching it at home a 8 of my friends got together to watch it at a friends house, So there is an 8/1 figure. Many factors come into it with viewing figures and none of them mean very much in real terms.
     
  20. dazsin

    dazsin First Technician

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    This is a ridiculous thread.

    Dave would not commission an expensive 6 episode series of something they consider a faliure.

    BTE was a huge success.
     
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