VII Vs. VIII

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by doggett, Mar 29, 2009.

  1. counting_sheep

    counting_sheep First Technician

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    Watched both series again a few days ago and much preffered series VII, the only problem in series VII for me was rimmer being replaced with kochanski.

    Apart from Cassandra in Series VIII the rest of the eposides were poor and there were a lot of pointless sketches just for comedy value that added nothing to the plot. For me the last episode of series VIII is one of the worst episodes in Red Dwarf they spent about 25 minutes in it with random comedy sketches and then 5 minutes with a rushed plot at the end.
     
  2. DocHilda

    DocHilda Third Technician

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    I havent watched series VIII as much as VII but think both should have stuck to just being 6 episodes. Then they could have had 6 really good ones and cutout the rubbish.
    O/H says VII is better - reckons series VIII ruined the whole concept (ie that Lister is the last man alive).

    Prob VII is better overall - Tikka, Duct Soup, Blue, Stoke me a Clipper all great eps.
    but is does contain my least favourite episode of all time: Epideme. I'm sorry but I really don't find repeadedly chopping someones arm off funny. I can't bear to watch that scene.
     
  3. TheTarantula

    TheTarantula Skutter

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    3 episodes in series VII were great, Tikka To Ride ("Why's everyone gathered around that giant pizza?") Stoke Me A Klipper ("Stoke me a klipper, I'll be back for christmas... whatever.") and Blue (The Rimmer Song is EPIC). I really think the loss of Rimmer as a character made the other episodes less enjoyable, still good, but just less so.

    I like VIII for the return of the bunk scenes, like in I. I don't like how Kryten and the Cat aren't featured as much though.
     
  4. FlibbleSec

    FlibbleSec Skutter

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    While admittedly VIII is funnier than VII (No matter how lame it gets, Rimmer is at his classic best), VII is the better series. Why? Because it has actual characters. And it's better-written.

    I didn't actually mind Kochanski in VII. When an actor leaves the show, and actor leaves the show. They were never going to fill Rimmer's shoes, but I thought Chole Annett did as good a job as anybody could have. She was classy and nice foil to the ridiculousness of the other three; she was sharp, intelligent, but had class-based character flaws, and she eventually fit in nicely. But then in VIII, when her hair randomly grew out, she was just...there. She didn't really contribute much. And that's the fault of the writing. Chloe was underused. She's never as witty or sharp as she was, even in the few scenes where she's a major character, like in the latter part of Cassandra.

    But worse than that, altohugh Lister and Rimmer certainly had their mmoments in VIII, everyone else was a caricature of themselves. Think of how badass Kryten became in Series V and VI. He was a total tool in VIII (although admittedly this devolution started in VII). Cat was okay, but Holly...that was just embarassing. Holly was funny in II because he said random things but still had SOME intelligence/things of value to say. But Holly in VIII was unfunny/a waste of time. And that wasn't Norman, that was just the writing.

    My other major gripe with VIII is the side characters. I always liked the early seasons because it made it look like Rimmer and Lister were reasonably laughable characters whereas the officers, captain, and everyone else were relatively normal. Todhunter, for example, had a joke or two but was a normal, competent guy. Hollister in I and II (even with his chickn outfit) was just a normal, competent guy reacting to the lunacy of Lister and Rimmer. I liked the idea of everyone else being normal and just Rimmer and Lister being dweebs. But according to VIII, everyone's a dweeb. Hollister is Dennis the Doughnut Boy, Ackerman and Kill Crazy are just unrealistically insane, MP Thornton is weird...the whole crew are a bunch of lunatics. And I didn't like that.

    VII at least had actual characters. Lister was a fully fleshed-out chracter, as were Kochanski, Kryten, and Cat. And while not as in-your-face funny as VIII, at least (or at least trying to be) clever, coherent, and intelligent. The thing that cinches it for me is that I can show VII to my friends as I introduce them to Dwarf. Tikka to Ride's a half-decent ice-breaker. On the other hand, I can't even bear to watch VIII, never mind trying to show it to people. Thus VII is better than VIII in my opinion.
     
  5. magnusgreel

    magnusgreel First Technician

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    I just finished watching 1-8 again. Chloe in s7 I now love totally. Great character, great writing, great acting. Her unpleasantness early on doesn't make us like the character as a person, but it works.
     
  6. smegthat

    smegthat Third Technician

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    Series 8 was bad because it ruined the whole point that lister was the last human alive in space, bringing the crew back was stupid and pointless, they died leave them dead, seeing the crew do nothing but stay on red drawf annoyed me, no aliens, no fights, no funny moments it was a bad version of porridge.

    7 sucked when rimmer left, kichanski was annoying, unfunny and ruined listers character, and kryton turned for the worse, cat couldn't mess about.

    Taking out rimmers like taking out chandler in friends ie no one to take the mick out of joey if he messed up or other characters, thats why joey series sucked.

    7's a better series, but most of it sucked 8 put the nail in the coffin, i'm glad red drawf and it's crew were killed off again, leave them that way, rimmer kicking death in the nuts was good but that's it.
     
  7. Tex_Rimmer

    Tex_Rimmer First Technician

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    Series 8 was bad because it ruined the whole point that lister was the last human alive in space,

    Um, hadn't Series 7 already done that with Kochanski? It's only in Season 1 and 2 that they made a big deal about him being the last human, and it was hardly important to maintain that.

    bringing the crew back was stupid and pointless, they died leave them dead, seeing the crew do nothing but stay on red drawf annoyed me, no aliens, no fights, no funny moments it was a bad version of porridge.

    By that reasoning, there should be no holograms, and Rimmer should have stayed dead. I admit the method leaves a lot to be desired. (It opens a huge can of worms if Kryten's nanobots can not only repair machinery, but can bring people to life again. Heck, they could literally create a can of worms), and means that nothing is permanent and nobody need ever die. But the idea that there's some magic unwritten rule that we should never see the crew again is totally arbitrary (kind of like your weird rule that Lister should always remain the last human, even though Jim and Bexley were on the scene back in Season 2).

    If all you care about is aliens and fights, you're probably watching the wrong show in the first place, quite honestly.


    7 sucked when rimmer left, kichanski was annoying, unfunny and ruined listers character, and kryton turned for the worse, cat couldn't mess about.

    No offense mate, but you can't even spell the names of the series' main characters (kryton? kichanski?) and you want us to take your word on blind faith about literary analysis? That's smegging nuts.)


    Taking out rimmers like taking out chandler in friends ie no one to take the mick out of joey if he messed up or other characters, thats why joey series sucked.

    Huh? The universal translator didn't quite catch that. (punctuation isn't limited to capitalizing the first word in a sentence, you know.) kichanski did take the mick out of joey lister maybe not as well as rimmer did but she still did (When in Rome!)


    7's a better series, but most of it sucked 8 put the nail in the coffin, i'm glad red drawf and it's crew were killed off again, leave them that way, rimmer kicking death in the nuts was good but that's it.

    That was an important speech sir, and it needed to be made, but might I suggest that from this moment the rest of the discourse is conducted by those with brains larger than a grape.
     
  8. smegthat

    smegthat Third Technician

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    Woah, wth's your problem, why are you flaming me.

    I made an opinion, if you don't like it dont reply, i like red drawf for a lot of reasons, i haven't taken you apart or flammed you, so dont do it to me.

    Sorry i thought thats how the characters were spelled, might not be how you pronounce it but that's how i spell it, dont say i shouldn't carry on, i've got a brain so don't insult me or take me apart because i didn't spell the names 100% correctly.

    I'm here to talk with the rest of the fans so if you dont like what i type dont reply.

    In the words of Dave Lister your a complete smeghead.
     
  9. Tex_Rimmer

    Tex_Rimmer First Technician

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    I didn't actually mind Kochanski in VII. When an actor leaves the show, and actor leaves the show.

    A reasonable point, but Rimmer never really "left" the show, did he? I mean he wasn't available for half the season, but we were never told (offscreen) that he was gone for good.


    They were never going to fill Rimmer's shoes, but I thought Chole Annett did as good a job as anybody could have.

    That's kind of a polite nothing, isn't it? Do you honestly mean to say that there's not a single actress anywhere in the world who could have done better than her? That's pretty high praise indeed. I like her well enough, but I wouldn't go that far.

    The real problem with 7 was that Rimmer's personality was divided. Half of it went into Kochanski, and the weaselly, whiny part went into Kryten where it didn't really fit. But it wouldn't have fit in Kochanski either. They'd have done better leaving that out. Kryten's neurotic fits are one of the worst parts of Series 7.


    But then in VIII, when her hair randomly grew out, she was just...there. She didn't really contribute much. And that's the fault of the writing. Chloe was underused.

    Not the writing so much as the format. There's really nothing for her to do in Series 8, except on the Canary missions. They're not going to keep her in the same cell with Rimmer and Lister. There was less for Kryten to do also. Series 8 went back to the original format: Rimmer and Lister in close quarters driving each other crazy. But it felt a little more claustrophic than before, because as the Cat says, before we knew we could walk out the door at any time.



    Think of how badass Kryten became in Series V and VI. He was a total tool in VIII (although admittedly this devolution started in VII).

    He couldn't be that way on a ship with a full crew.


    My other major gripe with VIII is the side characters. I always liked the early seasons because it made it look like Rimmer and Lister were reasonably laughable characters whereas the officers, captain, and everyone else were relatively normal. Todhunter, for example, had a joke or two but was a normal, competent guy. Hollister in I and II (even with his chickn outfit) was just a normal, competent guy reacting to the lunacy of Lister and Rimmer. I liked the idea of everyone else being normal and just Rimmer and Lister being dweebs. But according to VIII, everyone's a dweeb. Hollister is Dennis the Doughnut Boy, Ackerman and Kill Crazy are just unrealistically insane, MP Thornton is weird...the whole crew are a bunch of lunatics. And I didn't like that.
    VII at least had actual characters. Lister was a fully fleshed-out chracter, as were Kochanski, Kryten, and Cat. And while not as in-your-face funny as VIII, at least (or at least trying to be) clever, coherent, and intelligent. The thing that cinches it for me is that I can show VII to my friends as I introduce them to Dwarf. Tikka to Ride's a half-decent ice-breaker. On the other hand, I can't even bear to watch VIII, never mind trying to show it to people. Thus VII is better than VIII in my opinion.

    There's some truth in that, but maybe not as much as you think. Except for the "Dennis the Doughnut Boy" remark, the Captain is still a fairly straight character. Kill Crazy is kill crazy but he's a convict. Same with the others. The nuttiest ones are the ones who work in the prison section. The regular crew isn't that bad. The psychiatrist is more quirky and annoying than insane.
     
  10. Tex_Rimmer

    Tex_Rimmer First Technician

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    Woah, wth's your problem, why are you flaming me.

    Cause if Series 7 sucks, I wanna know WHY it sucks. Just telling me that it's (generically) bad and (generically) unfunny tells me nothing. I thought a lot of the actual gags in 7 were pretty good, and that Kochanski actually did do a fairly decent job taking the Mickey out of Lister (though not quite as good as Rimmer did, or in quite the same way.)


    I made an opinion, if you don't like it dont reply,

    LOL, you only want replies if they tell you how right you are. I see. But surely that's the risk you take when you state your opinions at all. Feedback, like viruses in Red Dwarf, come in both positive and negative forms. State an opinion, risk being disagreed with. (Although I didn't disagree with your opinion so much as find it a little incoherent. I do find 7 to be one of the weaker seasons).


    Sorry i thought thats how the characters were spelled,

    Hmph! Cryten with a C! Thank you, with a capital R! (Sorry, I couldn't resist).


    might not be how you pronounce it but that's how i spell it, and dont say i shouldn't carry on, i've got a brain so don't insult me or take me apart because i didn't spell the names 100% correctly.


    The "grape" speech is actually lifted verbatim from an episode.


    I'm here to talk with the rest of the fans so if you dont like what i type dont reply.

    Now, that's not really true, is it? You're not here to talk with the rest, you just said you didn't want to talk to anyone who didn't agree with you. But what do you have to say to such people? I mean you already agree, so what's left to talk about?
     
  11. smegthat

    smegthat Third Technician

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    No i'll talk to people that disagree with me, just not to people like you who flame others for not being right, i know what a forum is, lol he can't spell i know i'll take the mick or he only wants aliens ( i didn't say that), i liked that part in it, i hated 8 because they didn't do a lot, and it was better when lister was the only human.

    I didn't see that part in season 2 because i didn't see every episode in the series, my opinion isn't law and neither is yours, dont be out of order to someone because they made a mistake or they're not right, i'm here to talk to fans like everyone else not a pompos git like you, you'd make a good rimmer because well your both smegheads right ( if that's spelled correctly).

    Ban me if you want, i was here to talk, if an arogant smeg head like this is gonna take me apart for having an opinion then i'm not wasting my time.

    It's sad that people like you think you govern the internet flamming people for not being right or having a different opinion.
     
  12. Tex_Rimmer

    Tex_Rimmer First Technician

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    Yeah I thought VI was as good as any of the previous series, I don't get why some people lump it in with VII and VIII

    It has no Red Dwarf or Holly, and relies over-much on formula gags (Space Corps Directives and the Cat's clothing analogies). Still, it's aged pretty well. On first viewing, I thought it was a cut below the first 5 seasons, and now I'd put it about equal to them.
     
  13. Tex_Rimmer

    Tex_Rimmer First Technician

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    No i'll talk to people that disagree with me, just not to people like you who flame others for not being right,

    Now you're getting it wrong deliberately. You heard me say twice that I wasn't criticizing you for being wrong, but rather for being vague and incoherent. If you don't understand that much, then you can't possibly criticize anything I said, cuz you don't even know what it was.

    Secondly, you're ignoring that the Grape speech was a line of dialogue from the show. You seemed to acknowledge that for a moment, but then immediately forgot it again. If you're going to get it wrong deliberately, then you're right, there's really not much sense discussing it.


    my opinion isn't law and neither is yours,

    Nobody said it was, except you. For the last time, I found your opinion not wrong, but rather nonsenseical. I wanted you to clarify it, but clearly you're not capable of doing that. End of story.

    Man, if you get this pompous and self-righteous just because you THINK someone disagreed with you, imagine if I really had!
     
  14. nathall

    nathall Skutter

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    Glad to see all the Season 7 love in here. Season 7 is far and away superior to 8 (IMO) and featured some of the best stories of the show's entire run. Also, some of the FUNNIEST MOMENTS. That's right, some of the best comedy of the entire Red Dwarf saga. You simply cannot best the pre-titles opener of Stoke me a Clipper, nor the final moments of Blue. To say Season 7 is "unfunny" and therefor "it sucks" is doing it (and yourself) a great disservice. Dwarf has not, before or since (until Back to Earth), LOOKED as good visually and it's a shame they reverted to live audience taping for season 8. Although, even higher production values probably wouldn't have helped Season 8 much.

    Unfortunately for me, 8 comes in second to last, just ahead of 6. Seven on the other hand, is my second-favorite series ever, just behind series 5 and that's really only because of the lack of Rimmer in half the episodes.
     
  15. magnusgreel

    magnusgreel First Technician

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    It continued to be very important to the series that Lister was the last man alive, even more so when parallel Kochanski appeared, introducing the possibility that the last man now had a last woman to rebuild the race. That possibilty hangs over all of s7.

    I also think it dilutes the series a bit to have a huge shipful of humans reanimated, making the human race a going concern without Lister, especially since they survive after s8, though who knows where they end up. Still, existence tends to throw these absurdities at us, so I wouldn't blame the problems in s8 on that too much.
     
  16. xennibubz

    xennibubz Skutter

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    It's always a kind of moot point when you ask people which series were better as everyone has a different sense of humour, however its been good to read break downs of the episodes to understand WHY folk didn't enjoy them as much.

    I have to vote for VII as although Kochaniski was brought back and the shooting style changed the whole feel of the show, there were some quality moments. I couldn't finish watching the rest of series VIII when it was aired as i was so taken aback by the lameness of it. I'll update my thoughts once i've admitted to myself that it does indeed exist, cave in and finally buy the DVD.
     
  17. hubbard

    hubbard Deck Sergeant

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    I hated series 7 I gotta be honest, impossible plots and twists and waaaay too much silly cgi. Just like BTE it tried too hard to be a movie event and not what it really is.....a comedy show.

    Series 8 I liked, not as good as the classic series of 2-6 but it came back inline with what I expect from RD. Obviously the laughter track was back making everything seem much funnier and helping those awkward silences after lines. Holly was back in the form of Lovett and much better for it with his dry dead pan deliveries and with a huge plot arch (which was still abit too much for me) we saw the original crew back which did make for some brilliant comedy which actually surprised me.

    Captain Hollister was great, newbie Ackerman was excellent as was Killcrazy and various other crew members and prisoners. It really worked so well and pretty much got RD back in the red (no pun intended, sort of) Smile
    As said there were still some silly plots which also carried on over two episodes, which is ok but I prefer one plot for one episode as more can be done in a series.

    I think series 8 showed what can be done with cgi, movie looks and the classic RD style, everything that BTE SHOULD of been in my eyes. BTE showed exactly the same problems as series 7, virtually identical yet they still went ahead and made the same mistakes!! crazy. I thought they learned from series 8 which must be more popular than series 7.

    Series 7 - no no
    Series 8 - much better

    8)
     
  18. Tex_Rimmer

    Tex_Rimmer First Technician

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    O/H says VII is better - reckons series VIII ruined the whole concept (ie that Lister is the last man alive).

    I've heard several people say that in the last few days, and it makes no sense. The phrase Holly used (and the book title) was "Last Human", not last man. And it was Series 7, not Series 8, that abandoned this concept, by bringing in Kochanski.

    And of course, they were never quite sure that Lister really was the last human, since they never made it back to earth to see what was going on there. For my money, I don't think he ever was the last human, and that there are, if not entire human societies left anywhere, at least a few more of them floating around in suspended animation somewhere (like Barbra Bellini, for example).
     
  19. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    I disagree with this post and agree with the other guy who called it infantile. "erection" gags, periods and putting pubes on soap are the kind of stuff that belongs on Kevin and Perry Go Large not a show like Red Dwarf, which, while it has its moments of slapstick and innuendo never previously felt the need for such obvious sight gags that only a 13 year old boy would find amusing.
    I wonder how many of these jokes were Doug Naylor's and how many were Paul Alexander's. I'd bet they were the latter's as you don't find that kind of bottom of the barrel stuff in Doug's solo stuff.
     
  20. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    Maybe you only watched the Xtended version but series 7 did have a laughter track so there were no "awkward silences after lines" on the regular shows.
     

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