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Discussion in 'THE AIGBURTH ARMS' started by Nikki the Great, Sep 22, 2017.
(It was him).
My favourite type of dino
Does look a little guilty , huh?
I have no idea what that is. Can we have an explanation?
is he the dino out of super Mario?
8 bit Triceratops. Probably this guys pet.
Won't ask again.
Seb...you do realise this is not aimed at you right? I know you don't like me very much, and that's ok, but the whole "blaming Reznor" thing we've been doing is NOT aimed at you, nor did you even cross our minds.
As you are aware, Danny is using the forum again in multiple accounts - "PeejayHarvey" you know is him. "Iced Gemz" another, and I believe more have been drawn to your attention. You have chosen not to act at this stage, and that's fine, but it seems a little inconsistent in terms of moderaring when you take into account other factors.
Yes a few of us were aware Danny was back. Apparently you were too? But as for us - he came in chat. We took pity on him as he was dealing with something very sad, which we tried to support him through. But it became difficult to support someone so unpredictable.
Danny would pretend to be other members of the forum. It got annoying and we told him so. But he would blame Reznor. Or try to convince me it was Harry. One such entry was shortly after the death of Karnie, where he entered as "Karnie's Ghost". This upset a couple of people, but instead of apologising for the tasteless joke he began pointing fingers at other people, including myself. The fact he went around implying to my actual off-forum friends that I had done this, was the last straw for me personally. I had tried for a long time to show kindness and sympathy to Danny. I convinced other people he wasn't a monster, he just had some kind of issues and needed to be shown compassion. But he threw it in my face, so I no longer wanted involvement with him. I remained civil with him, but it was hard when his antics were so crazy. And he kept reminding me "Seb hates you and is looking for a reason to ban you". So yeah...I just left it til it got even further out of hand.
These antics would nearly always culminate in blaming Reznor. So it became a joke to us. Not related to you at all Seb, in fact only one person seemed to even remember anything about the problems between yourself and Reznor. People have issues with other members. I have had a loooong bout of harassment from Harry. But is his name forbidden to be mentioned? Would I expect it to be? No. Unless there is a specific board rule that forbids mention of the name "Reznor" then I am puzzled how you can take the attitude that any mention of his name requires action, but a banned user (who has spent years on various harassment campaigns against members apparently - did Jed not say the police were involved in his case?) is allowed to stay and post as other people, deceiving those unaware. Would you/do you take action anytime Harry or Simulant or any other such names are mentioned? People that havr No, because they did nothing to you personally. That's pretty inconsistent, Seb.
Several of us were in utter disbelief the other day when you came down hard on Ant for tagging people. But again, it seemed the problem was based solely on the fact YOU had been tagged, which caused you a minor annoyance. Given what you allow on the forum in terms of Danny and his multiple accounts for example, this seems extremely unbalanced. It is becoming like you are moderating based solely on what you personally take offence to.
I felt let down by you twice on the previous forum on your action against harassment. Simulant's inappropriate sexual/simulated rape "jokes" were left unpunished, in fact he only left the forum because he slipped up and his real identity came out. Harry dragged a deeply personal, painful and traumatic part of my life across the forum for all to see and you were seemingly unmoved. Your attitude in pm's to another member about this even came across as sneering at one point. Yet around the same time, when Cloud pointed out it looked like a lady attending dj had wet herself on stage, you got extremely mad and threatened action. Can you see why this looks like inconsistent modding? And that you mod based purely on whom you like/dislike or what does/doesn't annoy you personally?
Nothing to do with our recent references of Reznor has been any sort of attack on you, Seb. You weren't even thought of. We were just making fun of the way anytime something bad happens...that Danny has done, he blames Reznor, who nobody has even heard from for years. Sometimes he blames Harry, knowing I would be anxious about that. But do I expect a ban on mentioning Harry to be applied to everyone? No. And I know you wouldn't even dream of enforcing it.
It's fine to have a very hands off approach to moderating and letting people sort things out between themselves. But jumping in angrily when someone does something that annoys you personally, but ignore anything else that might upset another person, just looks very unprofessional and inconsistent. You either need to be hands off for anything that doesn't break the rules, or moderate everything in the same way as you moderate that which annoys you personally.
I wont quote the above post cause it is gigantic. But I agree with Nikki. I believe a lot of this has upset her and she doesn't want to make a fuss but I know some of the glossing over of things that have obviously upset her (and they have, she just puts on a brave front) and then getting a bit upset at tagging (which lets be fair, the active members who get tagged have never really expressed a problem with it and they rest are never active so will never see).
But anyway I am glad we got to hear what @Nikki the Great thinks about this
Well...................... I don't really have a dog in this fight so my two cents don't amount to much if anything. I DO like Nikki, and Cloud too (most of the time ). I DO remember the harassment Nikki suffered under also. When I left I ghosted here off and on for months, never signing up just checking things out. IF I would have seen people talking about "me" the way the subject of Nikki's post is talked about, there is no way in hades I would have come back. (Real)BigOleDummy is not everyone's cup of tea, and that's cool .... I can live with that. But to be talked about and actively hated and despised by so many people, I just don't understand why anybody would want to be here under those circumstances, different name or not. I mean...... its not like there's no other forums to go to if you want to talk. I'm active in 3 others myself, one much more so than the other two but still. When I DID "come back" I made damn sure everybody KNEW who I was/am.
Some here used to think I was someone else under a different name and for all I know that could STILL be the case but at least you KNOW that I'm the same BigOleDummy even if I have to put "Real" in front of it now. No deception on my part. (If anyone STILL thinks I'm someone else I can only say, tune in to my interview as I hope to PROVE who I am if that question is asked.
Both @Nikki the Great and @Cloud are totally correct, this is a place to unwind and have a little fun and maybe discuss a shared love of a TV show. You or ANYONE should be free from harassment in this place at least.
I am 100% behind my friend @Nikki the Great on this, she has put up with too much bs which is completely undeserved, she has only ever tried to be nice to people.
I am pleased both @RealBigOleDummy and @Pembers are in agreement. I am glad we got to hear what they thought about this.
Perhaps not, but when I saw it happening I asked if you could stop. I appreciate that not everyone knows the entire history, but for a long time I have stated that I don't want Reznor mentioned here. I said in the Currently thread that I'd like if people could stop... and then this thread happened. Given that it was after the other, I have to ask how I'm meant to take it if not as a deliberate attempt to bait.
As for "I don't like you very much" - well, that's not really true, because I don't know you. I'm not in a position to know, or like or dislike, pretty much anyone on here. But do you annoy me sometimes? Yes, because I frequently get the sense in posts from you (and comments I've seen in chat) that for whatever reason you don't like me, and I honestly can't recall a time where you weren't being antagonistic towards me. I don't know where this comes from, except perhaps out of a (legitimate) annoyance at my not dealing with something that affected you in a satisfactory manner. But, we'll come to that.
I said the last time I tried to draw a line under one of these things that I have no deep-rooted personal dislike of you, simply because I don't know enough about you to draw that conclusion one way or the other. But, is it difficult to take everything you say in good faith when I've seen how you talk about me? Kind of, yes.
I wasn't "aware" Danny was back. I've had suspicions about PJH being an existing rather than new member, but that's all they are - suspicions. They were largely based on the fact that PJH immediately began posting in off-topic as if they were an established member, and knew lots about the forum background. As to whether it was specifically Danny (who was, admittedly, the most likely candidate) I'm not about to suddenly accuse a user of being a specific person without proof, which I don't have, nor without a sense that it's what the other users of the forum want me to do.
And let me be clear: until one recent message, nobody has come to me to talk about this thing that you apparently all knew about. You've all interacted in a friendly way with PJH, he's been in on all the same forum jokes as you - the impression I've got is that either you all knew he was Danny and were happy for that to be the case, or you didn't know or suspect that. From my point of view, opening up a line of accusation against PJH and threatening a ban could have led to as much of a mutiny as not doing anything. Even the message I got recently basically said "Yeah, we all knew this, but nobody told you about it". So it's difficult to then turn around and go "This is Danny, you should ban him".
Until the message I got the other day, I had no inkling that "Iced Gemz" was supposedly an alias of his, and I'd like more insight into this before really being able to take it any further.
This is the first I've heard of any of this, and like I say, it's at odds with how the relationship between "PJH" and the rest of you has seemed to be in public.
(Incidentally, though, the above is exactly the kind of reason why I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in reinstating an official chat channel. Nor do I think an unofficial channel associated with here is a good idea, because it breeds this kind of behaviour. But, I have no control over what you lot do outside the forum, you're all adults and that's all your own business.)
Again, not true. I'd ban you for a flagrant abuse of rules, like anyone else, but you'll note I've never even given you warning points, nor tried to find a spurious reason to do so. I've perhaps been quicker to call out things you've said than I have to other users, but as I've explained above, that's because I feel like you sometimes go out of your way to get my back up.
Like I say, it's hard to assume good faith when you don't actually believe the good faith is there. It's my belief that for whatever reason you have some kind of personal problem with me, and that does make it harder to treat your posts on a neutral level. I'm not suggesting that you suddenly have to start liking me and posting about how you think I'm brilliant (although I would like to understand what the problem is and how I could possibly fix it) but when you don't have that natural level of respect from somebody it does lead sometimes to having to try to stamp your authority a bit harder. Kind of like with teachers.
So, in short: whatever the problem is, and whether you feel like telling me about it or not (and I feel like it predates the Harry stuff too, so maybe isn't just that), if you were to at least keep your contempt for me less visible, we'd stand an easier chance of getting on. Equally, though, I'm not just about to put all the blame on you, and perhaps I could stand to let my natural annoyance not cloud my judgement. So it works both ways.
You call it inconsistent, I call it human. I know that mention of Reznor upsets me, because... well, because it upsets me. Do I know that anyone even mentioning Harry would cause you distress? Well, not unless you say.
Actually, the reason I came down on Ant was because I had a complaint from another user about it. It mildly annoyed me too, but I wouldn't have said anything if I hadn't had that complaint.
(second post to follow - too long to fit in the limit for one...!)
As mentioned above, I've generally turned a blind eye to the "PJH" thing because that's how other users seemed to want it. Perhaps I've misinterpreted that, but like I say: I've never had a direct complaint about it. If people had come to me and said "Danny is back on the forum, here's what the account is, here's how we know, we'd like you to do something about it" then I would. But nobody has.
That's not strictly the case, but when something does affect me personally it does mean I'm more likely to notice it. And, you know, that is just kind of how these things work. If I slap a random bloke in the face, am I as likely to get arrested as if I slap a policeman in the face?
We've talked about this before, but the problem that I have is that it's really hard to be across everything that goes on in the off-topic section, especially when some of it also happens in chats that I can't see. I try my best, but I'm reliant on people actually spotting and reporting things, too.
With the benefit of hindsight, I appreciate that I wasn't quick enough to act in the Harry situation and I didn't have a full understanding of what's going on. Part of the problem, though, is that I'm dealing with anonymous people on the internet. Of all the people being talked about here, I only know one of you having met you in person (JMC). As far as I know, and as far as could ever be proved, you might not all be real. It really isn't unprecedented on this very forum for two people involved in a dispute to actually be one person trolling/gaming the system for kicks.
I'm not saying that means I should ignore real concerns. I'm not saying that means I should ignore accusations of harassment. But it does mean that getting to the bottom of what's actually happening is more difficult and takes more time. And sometimes, that's more time than I have.
Online harassment is something I take very seriously and I don't like the idea of letting that happen on my watch. As I have done before, I can only apologise for the inadequacies in dealing with Harry. The issues there were twofold: firstly, coming to the situation late (not having read the pertinent posts in the first place), and secondly, not being quick to catch on to the fact that someone who had been a member of long-standing had shifted over into being legitimately harmful, because I didn't necessarily expect that that would be the case. And thirdly, I guess, being unable to untangle exactly who people were and who was meant to have said or done what.
I don't want to victim blame at all, nor should it be the sole responsibility of someone who this is happening to to report it. But I can only reiterate: when most of the discussion around this is happening in chats that I'm not privy to, then it's really difficult to know where to start with it. And it's very rare that anyone actually messages me directly (or, on the new forum, hits the Report button) to address a concern. If I ignored PMs about it then I could understand this, but I don't think I do - in your case, I don't think I've ever even had one until after things have gone way past that point.
I don't know which PM you're referring to but I'm not super keen on the idea of PMs I send to people being shared around, by a long shot. It makes me not want to actually keep replying to things privately.
I'm really not going to apologise for that one, as irrespective of how I've dealt with other situations, that one was completely beyond all acceptable use of this forum. I'm not having the forum brought completely into disrepute by people making comments like that about people who aren't her to defend themselves, and frankly I won't countenance the suggestion that that was an overreaction. (And if you want to talk about "inconsistent modding", that was a situation where the fact that Cloud was a longstanding user, even though he's one who likes to cause mischief and prod me, meant that I didn't just immediately delete his account. I hope those of you who are his friends can appreciate why not applying the rules in a blanket fashion was the right thing to do there. Anyway, he's apologised and been forgiven so there's no need to go over that one any more.)
I'll take you at your word on that in relation to the Currently thread, but like I say, given that the above image was posted after that, it makes it harder not to suspect a bit of gamesmanship going on there.
Anyway, for the avoidance of doubt: Reznor and his actions should not be mentioned on this forum again. Without going into it too much, the situation actually started to move towards the direction of legal issues. So, yes, please consider it a blanket ban from now on.
If it was asked for, and supported by other people, I'd consider it.
Okay, here's the deal:
Unless in situations where forum accounts are being used for specific instances of targeted, sustained abuse and harassment, I will not intervene in personal disputes - unless those personal disputes involve the breaking of specific, clearly-stated forum rules. I will attempt to keep as close an eye on simple rule breaking as possible, but if users have concerns about how other users are talking to them that are in more of a grey area, then bring them to me and I'll judge each one on its own merits and try to resolve them privately. Otherwise, I won't intervene.
I do reserve the right to apply guidelines such as the one about not bringing "Tex Rimmer" into the non-off-topic sections of the forum, and in general the Red Dwarf discussion sections are likely to be more strictly moderated to ensure that they stay on-topic and civil. But in this pub here, I will let you all get on with whatever nonsense you want to get on with, so long as the content itself is within the appropriate guidelines as laid out in the rules.
On a specific note, I would like to get a better handle on what's going on with the PJH thing and whether he/they have anything to say for themselves in light of all this. I would also like to understand the wider forum feeling on this user.
Just in case it's not clear, because I appreciate a lot of the above probably comes off as quite defensive: I would really like it if we can get past whatever the problem is here (since it's clear that there's animosity on both sides but I'm not really sure it needs to be there, on either side). I have no desire to actually have a long-running problem with you, and I am apologetic for how the Harry thing ended up playing out. So, ball's in your court, really.
I don't like the allegation that I cause mischief. I am well known for being lovely.
Also if you want to know what someone else has to say on the matter you do it thusly, you just ask
"I wonder what @blank thinks about this" and they appear with their opinion
Ok, thanks Seb, that's a reasonable reply. I will try to shed some light on things in an equally reasonable way.
Just to be 100 percent clear, the mention of Reznor recently was not any sort of deliberate attempt to upset you. But I won't mention his name again in a baiting way. It was entirely in reference to Danny's bizarre antics, that once caught out would immediately shift to either pretending to be Reznor, or blaming Reznor, which was thoroughly ridiculous. But I can appreciate you would rather his name not be mentioned.
The "not liking me very much" comes from a combination of things really. One was what I felt was harsher than normal/necessary moderating on me personally (which you've explained, and I'll get to that), and the other was the fact that Danny has been telling me you hate me and are looking for a reason to ban me - hence why I put it in quotes, he's said it to me a lot. When you combine the two, it can come across that way. And also the feeling I got that you hadn't taken problems I had been having very seriously. But again, we can come to that.
It's true to say I haven't trusted you for a long time to take me seriously or to take action when I've felt it was called for. This originally started back when I approached you via pm about Simulant's sexual harassment. Whilst you did acknowledge it was serious, you never really came back to me on it or took any action. I offered to send you screenshots to prove it, but never had a reply further than you acknowledging it was serious and telling me you were looking into it. Granted it wasn't long after that that Simulant ran away from the forum after accidentally exposing himself, but I still felt let down over it as should he have been ok with people knowing who he really was, he would still be here. You didn't come back to me and ask me if I was satisfied with that as being the end of the matter, which I suppose I felt you should have, or at least an assurance that should he come back you would look into it. And I'm assuming the comments you've seen from me in chat are ones where I (and others to be fair) have said you won't do anything about certain incidents? Well that's where it came from. And that's why I never pm'd you when Harry began his nasty campaign of mocking my personal trauma. I didn't think you would help me.
When you came in chat following what had happened on the forum the day Harry got completely vicious, I felt you more or less ignored me completely and seemed to mostly address Jmc. That got me down a bit too tbh. Like there was zero compassion towards me over what had happened, just that it was a pain to moderate. And then asking Jmc to come speak to you at DJ. I appreciate you've only met Jmc in person, so your relationship is different, but it felt a bit like my feelings did not matter, as there was no acknowledgement that I was even there, the person who'd been targeted that day. But like I said, I appreciate your relationship is different. Obviously Jmc has met me several times off the forum as you know, but if you're still in doubt so have Pembers and Stephen (although I haven't seen Stephen in person for at least 5 years - he could at least confirm my existence lol). I have also communicated with Cloud via voice/video call stuff. I am who I say I am, even if I don't like to give much away.
I can now fully accept your apology over the Harry stuff. That's the first time I've seen it first hand. So I appreciate it, I do really. I hadn't felt very good about all that for a long time now. But that's helpful for me to be able to accept and move on from it now. So thank you. I don't mind if his name is mentioned on the forum, I'm not asking for a ban on that. If people were going around saying what a great guy he was and they missed him then THAT might be unpleasant, but it's fine as it is. He's never mentioned in a very positive way.
Don't be too hard on/paranoid about pm's being shared. You had started that pm with the view to show me anyway, I believe, or at least asked for some of the contents to be passed along. The comment was something something along the lines of was I wanting everyone to hold up their wrists re the Harry stuff. That didn't feel very nice. I hadn't had acknowledgment or apology at that point, and some members were still sticking the boot in me over it. So that came across as mean and sneering. To put it another way - if one of us had turned around and made a similar comment re Reznor, would you have felt that was harsh? That's how it felt. BUT, I am only offering that as an explanation as I DO accept you have apologised today, and I think that is what matters now.
With regards to Danny, like I said, we had simply been trying to support him during a particularly sad time of his life. So seeing us joking around with him and stuff was part of that support. We felt he needed it. I admit to have been encouraging others to give him a chance during this period and to have not made you aware...well mostly because he appeared just after the Harry stuff, and I didn't feel like grassing someone up who was being nice/suffering, when I had felt let down over Harry. In hindsight that was a bad idea. And I'm sorry.
We had suspected Iced Gemz of being Danny for a while anyway. There were a few strange incidents, like "her" name changing during Ant's "ICE" period to "ICE". Given that Danny had/has a bit of a strange fascination and desire to mimic Ant, we sort of suspected all along that's who it was that was squatting in chat silently watching us. After several months of this, a few of us started coaxing "Iced Gemz" to speak. It was Danny, he admitted as much (although later claimed the account also belonged to a friend of his called Barbara in Argentina, and both of them were logging in/posting on it which was why sometimes "Iced Gemz" would talk like English wasn't their first language, and sometimes talk about British politics in perfect English. Although personally, I think it was all just Danny). Soon after admitting in the Iced Gemz account to being Danny, he registered the account PeejayHarvey and asked us to talk to him off the forum, which we did. Given the fact his circumstances seemed very unhappy at the time, and being that he simply seemed very lonely, we just wanted to help him.
We didn't anticipate however, the several confusing accounts/sockpuppets etc he was going to start using to create drama, paranoia and distress to people. Nor some rather alarming behaviour of asking for any pictures we might have of forum members, their personal details, or sending us screenshots of pics etc of forum members that he'd somehow obtained, despite their social media accounts being private. This was when things turned frosty. And just kept going increasingly downhill and unsettling. It got to the point he was being malicious in other accounts, as I mentioned, and then pointing fingers, either at us or Harry or Reznor which caused problems. I'm also semi-aware of some other stirring going on, where he is pretending to be other people (perhaps "PJH" is supposed to be a real person in these games) and making some pretty untruthful claims about some of us (if people want to say about that, that's up to them - I've not seen it first hand or the exact context so I'm reluctant to throw accusations).
Yes I/we are probably at fault for protecting Danny for a period of time. The intentions were good ones. I even thought perhaps we could help Danny in some way, so that his behaviour would become more "normal" if we just showed him kindness. But it backfired sadly. And now I have no idea what to do about it.
I hope that covers everything.
Just a quick two penn'orth from me to stop the backlash hitting the wrong people: on this occasion - the matter of PJH being Danny - I was the supergrass (again!) and I was acting unilaterally. I'm sure he's reading so wanted to put that in black and white before he jumps to his own conclusions.
Half the point of standing up an unofficial chatroom was so it wouldn't be a liability on the forum, so most of this is purely for context (to give you that "better handle").
You've probably sensed that everyone was getting along until it all turned sour. We couldn't prove that Danny was the sockpuppet with the upsetting name, but we *could* prove (and he later admitted) that he had entered as a sockpuppet on another occasion and tried to make us think it was Harry. He said the sockpuppet was meant to make us laugh and he only tried to blame Harry when we weren't amused. On a later occasion, after he'd been accused of the upsetting name, he went in our previous chatroom with a Harry-style screen name, using a proxy to obfuscate his real location. Again, he admitted to that, but said he was just testing the proxy to get in our current chatroom after he was IP banned. So we thought he was responsible for the other, more upsetting sockpuppetry (Occam's Razor, etc.). We still felt that when he protested his innocence, and then provided videos of posts conveniently appearing on the forum while both his hands were in view of the camera (the fact that he managed to catch it twice was in itself suspicious, given how rarely that particular sockpuppet posted anything). At that point, he took offence at getting the blame and left the chat - apart from coming in once to gloat when we even started to wonder if a religious spammer and Spaceman were him (that's a good gauge of the paranoia sockpuppetry creates).
What was especially upsetting was his attempt to convince Nikki's friends that she was responsible for the upsetting sockpuppet activity in an attempt to frame him. That was really the latest in a long line of people (Harry not even being the first) taking shots at Nikki that she really didn't deserve. Some of the attacks on Nikki have been completely unprovoked (Sim admitted he didn't like her but never really explained why) and some were cases of people seeing things out of context and picking the wrong side. This is the reason why Nikki has her circle of staunch defenders on the forum - some of us have witnessed a lot of the crap in the round. I'm not her spokesman, but her "naughtiness" on the forum seems like an understandable manifestation of her repeatedly being under siege, and it doesn't seem any worse than what Ant E does or Sim used to do, so it seemed a bit harsh when she got modded after dealing with so much crap herself.
When Danny's claim about Nikki was shot down, he backed away from that claim and said you-know-who had returned to smear his name, which was lampooned on the forum - leading to this latest post, which was probably expected to fly under your radar (I had to do a reverse image search to find out who the triceratops was).
So, in terms of my perspective on PJH: I can't prove forensically that he was responsible for all the sockpuppetry, rather than merely some of it. It doesn't help that we've also had a flurry of nonsense from Harry lately. But I felt he should've just taken any suspicion/blame on the chin, as a natural consequence of his past and recent behaviour, and accepted the lion's share of the responsibility for stopping ill-will forming over it. I *do* accept that all this stuff shouldn't matter when it took place off-forum. But he *is* banned from the forum, and you've got a number of people here who will testify that "PJH" freely admitted to his real identity on numerous occasions before things turned unpleasant.
I'm actually really grateful for some of your comments above about Harry. I also was upset by that whole situation on Nikki's behalf, and it doesn't help that he's still tw*tting around with us on a sporadic basis. He normally comes into our chats with silly aliases and turns hostile when we make it clear we know exactly who he is and mock his transparent sockpuppetry. But he sometimes does more subtle and alarming stuff. For instance: he recently pretended to be another (current) forum member and tried to ask probing questions about Nikki. Lately, he's resorted to unpleasant sexual slurs about her; he once (on the old chatroom) even started listing members of the forum and telling her they were "fitter" than her.
Again, I don't expect you to feel responsible for off-forum stuff. This is just context, so you understand the depth of feeling. If I'm honest, *one* of the reasons (not the main one) why I didn't dob Danny in straight away is because I didn't feel inclined to do my civic duty after Harry-gate... until it all got a bit "Danny" towards the end. And then I realised I'd cut my nose off to spite my face in not reporting it promptly. Well, you live and learn.
The atmosphere has been much better on the forum lately. I do hope you and Nikki sort this out; whatever you think of some of her actions on the forum, she has good friends here for a reason (including me I hope). It's really harsh that one lingering consequence of Harry's actions has been to forment ill-will between her and others and it would be great to see that closed off.
So much for "quick two penn'orth", lol!
To long to quote but VERY well said!