What's wrong with Series VII and VIII?

Discussion in 'RED DWARF UNIVERSE' started by Cepillo, Aug 3, 2010.

  1. Number_58

    Number_58 Second Technician

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    *shrug* I liked the Blue Midget dance, basketball game, Ackerman and prefer pre-"JMC cutbacks" Red Dwarf.

    What I don't like about Series VIII is that a lot of its humour is based on repetiton and some of the more interesting aspects aren't elaborated on like the secret prison on board having droid inmates and "...the nanobots must have resurrected you, too!"
     
  2. Mardroid

    Mardroid Console Officer

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    I liked the redesign of Blue Midget too. There was nothing wrong with the original, but the new version is just so quirky and kind of original*

    *I say 'kind of' because the AT-ST Imperial Walkers from Return of the Jedi did it first.** Blue Midget actually runs though!

    **Actually, they might have appeared in The Empire Strikes Back first. There were the larger four legged AT-AT Walkers in the Hoth imperial attack sequence but I don't think the 2 legged AT-STs were there. I think they were mainly utilised on Endor. (You see AT-ATs there too, but they only patrol the landing base.)
     
  3. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    What's "wrong" with them is entirely subjective and there are certainly plently of posts documenting people's views here, however very few people (if any) of the people who dislike the two series dislike them for the same reasons other than perhaps the vague feeling that they don't "feel like Red Dwarf" (this is rather harsh on VII if you ask me). Summing it up is difficult but the main reasons seem to be:

    VII:
    Not enough Rimmer
    Unpopular new Kochanski/uninteresting, unlikable character replacing likeable smeghead.
    Not funny enough
    No live studio audiance hurting the atmosphere
    Characters appearing to act out of character
    percieved poor CGI replacing much loved model shots
    Duct Soup.
    "Didn't feel like Red Dwarf"


    VIII:
    Overly Puerile/scatalogical/humour
    Overuse of running gags/stretched out gags/Overegged jokes
    Over-hammy almost pantomime acting
    Characters becoming parodies of themselves
    Massively underdeveloped science-fiction/intelligence insulting narrative leaps.
    Underdeveloped stories with a patched together/sketch show feel to them.
    Large cast taking away the established premise of "Last Man Alive" scenario.
    Not enough individual episode stories.
    Duane Dibley again!
    Pete Part 2.
    Horrible cliffhanger.
    "Didn't feel like Red Dwarf".

    ---

    These arn't the only criticisms, nor indeed are they specifically mine but they're the main ones I've heard aimed at the shows over the years.
     
  4. talkie3000

    talkie3000 Deck Sergeant

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  5. Bluey

    Bluey Science Officer

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    It would be difficult to argue against most of those criticisms, but I would like to point out that, despite all their faults, I still like series 7 and 8.

    In fact, over the years 7 has really grown on me and is now one of my favourite series.
     
  6. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    The strange thing is that I think I enjoyed series 8 alot more when I first watched it simply because it wasn't series 7 which I didn't enjoy very much on first watch (except Tikka which I still feel is a very strong episode once you get past the first few minutes) because it felt so different.

    I've come to enjoy series 7 alot more on subsequent rewatches, wheras series 8 (again minus the very good first episode) has seemed worse each time I watch it.

    I will say though that my partner who watched every series consecutively on being introduced to the show noticed a clear drop in quality at series 8 and asked me if the writers had changed. She didn't find series 7 to jolting from what I can gather.
     
  7. Daniel

    Daniel Console Officer

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    I do believe they made an appearance during the opening Hoth sequence of The Empire Strikes Back, although their presence wasn't focused on. They appear to be the main ground assault vehicle of the Empire after all (AT-ATs being the heavier weaponry side of things, so to speak). I'm pretty sure they appeared on the original Star Wars: Battlefront out in Hoth too, which could always be buggering about with my recollection of film though.
     
  8. Andrew

    Andrew Executive Officer

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    Actually, it's slightly interesting, this: The AT-STs were created by an FX guy off his own bat, just chucking in an extra idea, during Empire. Lucas liked the design, so let them use it - but in the end it was a late inclusion and only visible in a couple of shots. (A third was filmed but dropped.)

    This is covered in the recent Empire book, as well as the excellent fan docco Building Empire.
     
  9. Daniel

    Daniel Console Officer

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    Reminds me of the story of a lesser-known sci-fi vehicle that was brought to life in a similar manner, albeit already required by the show. They just played about and came up with a design for a bit of a laugh, and it became an endearing staple of the show for many, many years to come. The fabled White Midget, alias Starbug. Not the same genesis of course, but bears enough similarity to warrant a mention (not least of all this being a Red Dwarf forum!).
     
  10. Wascallywabbit

    Wascallywabbit Skutter

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    Initially I gave up on Red Dwarf half way through series 7 as I just thought it was going downhill and didn't like Kryten's high pitched squeal or Kochanski in general amongst other things. However I got bought the boxed set and have now watched every episode.

    The reason I had to comment on here is that I am still gobsmacked about how bad Red Dwarf 8 is - it is truly awful , truly dreadful , truly horrendous.

    I agree with most of the critcisms on here , they have in many ways stolen my thunder - overall it just lacks structure - real plot structure rather than just a number of ideas thrown in together rather half-heartedly before moving onto the next one. The minor characters have absolutely no depth at all and the major characters are merely caricatures with people like Kochanski , Holly and Cat merely peripheral. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the over use of the word 'smeg' and the bit in 'Cassandra' where Lister actually quotes 'Future Echoes' - why and how would he know the name of a Red Dwarf episode? Shambolic. It is a real mess.

    If Naylor carries on writing on his own I don't want Red Dwarf to ever return. I want to remember it as it was in Series 1-6. Doug , give it up mate or get Rob Grant back.
     
  11. Andrew

    Andrew Executive Officer

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    See, these kind of criticisms make me crazy. Lister is reminding the characters of their prior encounter with 'future echoes'. In that previous episode, the term 'future echoes' appears in the dialogue four times. It's what the characters call them. He uses the name just as he'd use the name 'polymorph', 'timeslides' or 'Inquisitor'.

    By all means don't like a show, but assuming idiocy on the part of the production because it better fits that dislike is unreasonable. It's like...well, actually, it's like insisting that a show should stop being made simply on the basis of your own taste. Go watch something else and let the people who like the show carry on watching. Live and let live, I say.
     
  12. dvd3500

    dvd3500 Catering Officer

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    There is only a short scene, perhaps 2 seconds long where an AT ST is running in between two AT ATs in Empire.
     
  13. SixthDwarfer

    SixthDwarfer Supply Officer

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    Not a fan of 'Parallel Universe' or 'Backwards', then?
     
  14. Nunubididoo

    Nunubididoo Skutter

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    I quite liked series 7, the only thing I disliked about it was possibly the lack of the audience (I didn't like this about Back to Earth) and the lack of Rimmer but I'm biased lol. Series 8 was ok but was a bit disappointing, as somebody said previously, the stories were stretched out and why resurrect the crew when it was working fine with the "boys from the dwarf" and Kochanski? Saying that though Kochanski became one of my favourite characters during those series, she became very likeable. I think also the CGI they used took away some of what Red Dwarf was to begin with, some of the CGI looked like it didn't fit in if you get me? it looked a bit fake lol. Also I don't think that resurrecting the whole crew was a good idea, bringing back Kochanski was enough but then expanding the amount of people even further, made the stories more clunky and less about Dave Lister "the last humam" wheras the whole idea of Lister being the only human was what drew people to Red Dwarf to begin with. Rant mode over lol. Series 7 wasn't as good as series 5 or 6 but it was a lot better than 8 :-)
     
  15. petetranter

    petetranter Catering Officer

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    I felt exactly the same way about the end of VI and thought it was fabulous that Rimmer was going to do something heroic and save the day but maybe that created a problem for VII.
    Time and again the writers seemed to come up with great stories but then realise that they hampered the direction of the show.
    What could you do with a heroic Rimmer at the beginning of VII. It's a great shame we didn't get that heroic moment for Rimmsy but it was probably for the best in the long term. We did have the satisfaction of seeing the original idea shot in the extras too.
     
  16. Mardroid

    Mardroid Console Officer

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    In a sense I'd say Rimmer still got his heroic moment. The intention was all there, even if it didn't get his pay off at the end.

    Also, while I understand the reasoning that a more heroically developed Rimmer might cause issues in his direction, I actually don't mind that either. People often break their mould when they've had to, proven that they're much more capable of the expanding beyond the parameters they've set themselves... then regressed later. I know I have. Most of my problems in life are due to that, albeit their not quite the same as Rimmer's ;-) )

    Besides, it could be argued that Rimmer's moment of heroism was a foreshadowing of his decision to become the new Ace.

    Course he regressed again, if we're to believe the Rimmer of BtE is that Rimmer returned. (That's what Doug Naylor suggested in the commentary, although I wouldn't say that is concrete until it appears in the programme.)
     
  17. bedfordfalls

    bedfordfalls Deck Sergeant

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    Have him appear as the much more contemplative, authoritive character he appears to be the first episode (Tikka to Ride) and then build on his heroism as the first inklings of what he will ultimately become in the second episode (Stoke me a Clipper).
     
  18. Number_58

    Number_58 Second Technician

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    Don't think you can assume series VII Rimmer would have been treated any different as a character based on the urine recyc payoff.
     
  19. Wascallywabbit

    Wascallywabbit Skutter

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    I disagree with just about everything you have said , Naylor did use the Lister quote to refer back to a previous 1st series episode of Red Dwarf..

    Referring to the bit where you say 'live and let live' , if this is true of course then you should not be lecturing me on what I can and can't watch on tv.

    If you cannot see that the quality of Red Dwarf 8 was abysmal then watch an episode from the first series and an episode from series eight back to back and I would be surprised if this didn't achieve the desired effect of highlighting the vast difference in quality.

    Every programme has its shelf life. I love Red Dwarf but the more Naylor carries on cluelessly flogging a dead horse , the more its memory will be tarnished.

    Oh and finally if somebody giving a critique on a once great tv show drives you crazy I would advise you to take a longer look at the world , including what is happening in Japan and Libya at the moment.
     
  20. Andrew

    Andrew Executive Officer

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    Man, you really have no idea what you're talking about. Believe me when I tell you I do. He talked about the future echoes they encountered, yes, but he wasn't naming the episode title.

    "If you believe in 'live and let live' you shouldn't be allowed to state your disagreement with me, or point out any factual errors?" Seriously, that's the argument?

    I don't care what you watch, I care that something isn't banned from further production simply because you don't like it - you seem happy that other people be deprived of something they enjoy if it makes sure you don't have to be aware of it. But how about the whacky notion of changing the channel?

    I don't like Songs of Praise. Do I ask them to ban it, or do I find the off button? Which is the more reasonable recourse?

    Gosh, yes, I should watch the shows. Maybe I'm not familiar enough with them...

    I didn't say anything about the quality of series eight, did I? What thing that I said are you arguing with here? Did I disagree with you on series eight, or did I point out a single factual error? What IS my opinion on that series? You didn't know, because I never said. But you've jumped to a conclusion that "disagreeing with you" and "defending the entire series" are the same thing.

    Okay, let's calm it down a little - that's a ridiculous thing to say, and I'm sure if you were reacting in less haste you'd realise it.
     

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